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20:22 Nov 2, 2011
This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
German to English translations [PRO] Mathematics & Statistics / arithmetic operations
German term or phrase:zusammenzählen, abziehen, malnehmen, teilen
I am translating a novel and would like to get a feel for how colloquial (or archaic?) these terms are.
the narrator went to school in the 1970s and has uses applied mathematics a lot in his job, so arithmetic and calculations are a part of his daily life, but I confess I've never seen these terms used before.
I'd be very interested to hear English native opinions as to whether we have any colloquial alternatives to "addition, subtraction, multiplication, division" - for the life of me I can't think of any, perhaps "plus and minus, times and by"?
Natürlich hast du recht, Kontext ist immer gut. Und ja, die deutschen Bezeichnungen werden nicht nur in der Grundschule verwendet, wenngleich ich schon meine, dass sie vor allem auch aus pädagogischen Überlegungen heraus verwendet werden (sicher bin ich mir nicht). Aber die grundsätzliche Frage, nämlich ob es englische Entsprechungen für malnehmen, teilen usw. gibt, ist Kontext-unabhängig. Das wollte ich eigentlich nur ausdrücken.
In strong contrast to katiadegennaro, I absolutely think that context is essential - and helpful - here as well. If you want to know which register to use in English, you need to find out which one is used in German. Reading the very small excerpt you provided (at least it's a start), I think Armorel's suggestion is a very good one, but we can't be sure without more context.
By the way: The reason why Wikipedia calls those terms "deutsche Bezeichnung" is that that's just what they are. Perfectly ordinary German, not just something used in primary school.
in this case context is actually not needed. These four terms are used in primary school for the basic arithmetic operations. As I am no native speaker, I simply don't know if there are correspondent words in English. In Italian, they don't exist, maybe because Latin is closer to Italian than German is, maybe because the pedagogical approach is different. Wikipedia simply calls the 4 terms "die deutsche Bezeichnung" of the arthmetic operations: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grundrechenart
"Es handelte sich [...] um Rechenmaschinen, die lange vor Bau der ersten Hollerithmaschine in der Lage gewesen waren, mit Hilfe von Walzen, Zahnräder und Hebeln Aufgaben der vier Grundrechenarten - zusammenzählen, abziehen, malnehmen, teilen - zu lösen."
The grown-up narrator is looking back on something he saw as a 17-year-old schoolboy.
I'm baffled by the "impossibility" of providing context. Just a sample sentence in which the words appear would be highly illuminating - or even a mere indication of whether the words appear singly and one at a time or in the sequence of four listed in the question.
Sigh. There's always context. For starters, in order to answer your question about how colloquial or archaic these terms are, and as the terms on their own are not necessarily colloquial or archaic, the context in which they appear might help a lot. You could at least have quoted a full sentence, or a small paragraph.
I think Horst's was the most useful contribution to the discussion - sorry Armorel for not being able to provide more context, but as mentioned it's a novel, so there's not really any way to give context except by giving you a whole chapter at a time.
are neither colloquial, nor archaic. They are the terms used in teaching arithmetic to children in the first grade, or maybe Kindergarten... If there are -- I don't know of any -- applicable words not derived from Latin, it might help, even if there no such child-language is used in teaching?
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
11 mins confidence:
summing, X, X, A over B
Explanation: Hi, this is quite an interesting question.
I'm going to do some research and post my findings here.
In the mean time, let me suggest two alternatives that I could think of:
Addition: summing
Divison: over, as in "a over b" (I might have to investigate this last one, I suspect that the habit of using fractions for division is relatively modern)
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 16 mins (2011-11-02 20:39:44 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
The suggestions for subtraction and division are particularly interesting: Subtraction:
4 minus 3 equals...
7 less 2 equals...
8 take away 6 equals...
9 decreased by 1
Reduce 4 by...
Subtract 7 from 9
Deduct 2 from 3
Remove 2 from 5
The "7 less 2" seems to me to slightly archaic (I have nothing to back that up yet, though), in case you are interested in reproducing the same style in your translation.
Division
9 divided by 3
divide 8 by 4
4 goes into 8
The "4 into 8" also seems interesting.
Note: I won't be able to give you any help as to how archaic the German terms are, but I'm sure that there are plenty of German natives who will be able to help out with that.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 48 mins (2011-11-02 21:11:10 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
In a general sort of way, engaging in arithmetic could be called "doing sums".
Calling the operations: "adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing" is already one step less formal than "addition, subtraction, multiplication, division".
Note that though you learn your "times tables", I think "timesing" doesn't really work (though you differently hear/see it around).
Also, I understand where you're coming from with "by" for division, but I think that it is very ambiguous - think of the ants that go "four by four" (in groups of four, so a multiple of four --> multiplication), or a "four by five" matrix (with 20 elements in it). I'm currently looking for examples where it is used for division - there may be some, but at least from a modern perspective it is more natural to say "5 over 4", or "5 divided by 4".
Joshua Pepper Local time: 23:58 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English, French
Explanation: are more colloquial than "addition, subtraction ..." etc.
But what we really need is to see the context in which these words are used - it's difficult to get the feel for what's needed without seeing a proper chunk of text.
Armorel Young Local time: 23:58 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 28
1 hr confidence:
add, subtract, multiply, divide
Explanation: ... the old "add, subtract, multiply, divide" was a part of his daily life...
We need these basic skills as these are the things that have daily importance and application in our lives such as the add-subtract-multiply-divide knowledge we have learned since we started becoming aware of numbers. http://www.teach-nology.com/subjects/math/teachers/
Jenny Streitparth New Zealand Local time: 10:58 Native speaker of: German, English
Reference information: Nur mal eine Einschätzung von einem Muttersprachler:
"I am translating a novel and would like to get a feel for how colloquial (or archaic?) these terms are." - Sie sind nicht besonders umgangssprachlich oder archaisch (lediglich "zusammenzählen" fällt ein kleines bisschen aus dem Rahmen). Zumindest die anderen drei kann sind auch in modernen wissenschaftlichen Texten nichts ungewöhnliches, auch wenn das Register natürlich etwas weniger gehoben ist als bei "subtrahieren", "dividieren", "addieren" und "multiplizieren".
efreitag Germany Specializes in field Native speaker of: German PRO pts in category: 28