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kennen

English translation: include

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)

German term or phrase:	kennen
English translation:	include
Entered by:	Susan Welsh

Options:
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- Include in personal glossary

20:24 Dec 8, 2009

German to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Military / Defense / feminism

German term or phrase: kennen

Women are not accepted into the military because the officers ...

behaupteten, Soldatinnen würden in muslimischen Gesellschaften nicht anerkannt, obwohl viele Heere in islamischen Ländern auch Frauen kennen.

I should think "kennen" here would mean include, but I don't know that it is ever used that way--nor do I know whether armies in Islamic countries include women. It seems ridiculous to say that they "know" women (what, didn't the soldiers have a mother?).

Any help would be appreicated!

Susan Welsh KudoZ activity Questions: 240 (none open) (12 closed without grading) Answers: 280 United States
Local time: 22:14

include

Explanation:
"kennen" is used here in the sense of "being familiar with" the employment of female soldiers.

Selected response from:

Henry S
Local time: 04:14

Grading comment

This was most helpful, although not first chronologically, because it gave me an idea of how it could be encompassed by the familiar meaning of "kennen." In other words, since you gave a reason, I don't just have to take your word for it that I was right in the first place. Thanks to all.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

4 +5

it is not unknown

Andrew Swift

4 +2

include

philgoddard

4 +1

include

Henry S

4 -1

recognize

transworder

have

mbrodie

Summary of reference entries provided

This is the original work referred to

sibsab

Answers

10 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +2

kennen include

Explanation:
Syria has women in its army, and I'm sure other countries do.

philgoddard
Local time: 21:14
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 4

11 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

kennen (hier)

include

Explanation:
"kennen" is used here in the sense of "being familiar with" the employment of female soldiers.

Henry S
Local time: 04:14
Native speaker of:

German
PRO pts in category: 4

Grading comment

24 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): -1

kennen (hier) recognize

Explanation:
What you offer as "context" seems to be an extract of a discussion, not a rule. The Americans involved women in both Iraqi wars.
Arabian laws do not recognize women as ordinary army soldiers and do not treat them according to international conventions when captured. The Americans apply the same trick and do not recognize men in civil clothing as army soldiers and arrest them in Guantanamo as civilian terrorists.
Almost any country in the world is employing women, but on positions, not directly exposing them to fire.

transworder
Local time: 05:14

21 hrs confidence:

have

Explanation:
You could also use this. For your info: the Jordanian army definitely has female personnel.

mbrodie
Local time: 03:14
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 21

40 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +5

kennen (hier) it is not unknown

Explanation:
... although it is not unknown for women to be members of the armed forces in certain Islamic countries.
http://tinyurl.com/yc2jp7x

This way, you keep the sense of the German verb ‘kennen’.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-12-08 21:56:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Recent KudoZ experience has taught me to cover all the angles:
“…although the armed forces of certain Islamic countries have been known to recruit women members.” Not quite as natural sounding, but it is a viable alternative that is phrased as a positive.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day15 hrs (2009-12-10 12:08:40 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Thank you so much for your closing comment. It appears that, once again, the consensus view amongst peers was off target.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 days (2009-12-17 17:42:37 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Kindly withdraw your reference to 'sarcasm' below, as this is a clear breach of KudoZ rules. I am not in the habit of complaining to moderators but may make an exception in this case.

Andrew Swift
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:14
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 31

Notes to answerer

Asker: I agree with Phil that this doesn't work because of the word "viele," which you have changed to "certain" -- implying "not many, but some."

Asker: Is your addendum intended to be sarcastic? "Consensus among peers" should never be the basis for deciding anything, certainly not Kudoz answers. I have tried to explain my reasoning, and I appreciate your help to find the right term. Ultimately, it is the brain of the translator who is familiar with the job as a whole that has to make the judgment, peers or no peers.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

agree

David Williams: Sounds like a good solution to me // What do you mean by that???

18 mins

-> Thanks D. Asker always knows best ;-)

agree

Tom Feise: yeah, and women in "modern" armies are sometimes not allowed to carry arms, i.e. act as soldiers, or even vote, so this is a good work-around

29 mins

-> Thanks T. Asker preferred own solution.

agree

Susanne Rindlisbacher

40 mins

neutral

philgoddard: The context actually says that "many" Islamic countries'armies include women, so I'm not sure if "not unknown" is appropriate.

1 hr

-> I don’t feel that ‘include’ is the verb of choice here. The army includes 18-year-olds? The navy includes people with disabilities? The air force includes pilots? KudoZ includes non-native speakers?

agree

seehand

13 hrs

agree

Bernhard Sulzer: "kennen" simply means "do this" here. I would simply go with "recruit women" or "have been recruiting"; or turn it around: the recruitment of women is practiced by/is common practice/quite poss.:)

1 day4 hrs

-> Thanks B. I suspect that the client will feel reassured to see 'know(n)' featuring in this section of the the translated text.

Reference comments

30 mins

Reference: This is the original work referred to

Reference information:
http://www.nato.int/ims/2007/win/opinions/Gender mainstreaming in ESDP missions.pdf
On page 37 is the paragraph about women in the military in muslim countries

sibsab
Israel
Native speaker of:

German

Note to reference poster

Asker: Thank you, that's very helpful.

Voters for reclassification
as
PRO / non-PRO

Non-PRO (1): Andrew Swift

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Changes made by editors

Dec 8, 2009 - Changes made by Astrid Elke Johnson:
Term asked	kennen (hier) => kennen

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kennen

English translation: include

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English translation: include

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