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i.A / i.V.

English translation: just leave them out.....

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:i.A / i.V.
English translation:just leave them out.....
Entered by: Alison Schwitzgebel

07:30 Nov 9, 2001
German to English translations [PRO]
German term or phrase: i.A / i.V.
I know they stand for 'in Auftrag' and 'in Vertretung', but do we differentiate in English? I'm only aware of 'pp'. The German letter contains both, so apparently they've deliberately made the distinction.
TIA
Kate
just leave them out.....
Explanation:
If these terms appear at the bottom of a letter in front of someone's typed out name they mean

i.A. = im Auftrag
i.V. = in Vertetung (in Vertretung der Gesellschaft)

the i.V. signature is always on the left, i.A. is always on the right. The i.A. guy generally always writes the letter, but needs the guy with "i.V." to sign it too to make this letter an official declaration of intent according to the BGB (whereby only those who are specifically authorized to do so can legally represent the company for certain transactions).

Now, the problem is that there is no such system of signing letters in the English speaking world.

If a secretary signs a letter for her boss because he is out of the office, then she puts "pp" in front of her signature, but this is a different story entirely.

So..... I'll run the risk here of getting shot down by my colleagues and would just leave them out (unless of course it is vital to the meaning of the document that you put some equivalent in).
Selected response from:

Alison Schwitzgebel
France
Local time: 18:04
Grading comment
I like the totally new approach best!
Thanks for the clarification of legal differences, which I wasn't aware of, but my problem is really more one of usage. I was toying with the 'pp', but without the iV/iA convention in English it seems most sensible to me to leave them out.
Thanks to all who replied.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +2for & on behalf of
aldrans
5 +2Let's try and get this straight ... :)
Karl Apsel
4 +1by order/by attorney
Rasha Brinkmann-Yahya
3 +1by order/by proxy
Martin Schmurr
4by order of/ pp
NickWatson
4pp
Sandra Schlatter
4In support of Martin
Maya Jurt
4 -1pp / p.p. (=per procurationem)
Karl Apsel
4 -1just leave them out.....
Alison Schwitzgebel


  

Answers


3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
by order/by proxy


Explanation:
i. A.: has been charged to act, i. V.: maybe the first chap is ill and the other does the best he can.


    native
Martin Schmurr
Local time: 18:04
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 161

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Maya Jurt: Yes. Both signatures have no legal value.
16 mins
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6 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
pp / p.p. (=per procurationem)


Explanation:
pp or p.p. does the job...


    Langenscheidt
    Experience
Karl Apsel
Ireland
Local time: 17:04
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 94

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Maya Jurt: no, that ppa. for someone who is mentioned in the commercial registry
12 mins
  -> I usually come (in business letters) across "pp" unless it actually is the actual legal transfer of power of attorney...
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6 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
by order/by attorney


Explanation:
i.A. = by order, to be ordered by somebody to do something
i.V. = by attorney, to have a power of attorney to represent somebody

Rasha Brinkmann-Yahya
Local time: 12:04
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 39

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Maya Jurt: i.V. signature has no legal value
12 mins
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10 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
by order of/ pp


Explanation:
i.A = by order of
i.V. = pp
in my opinion, they are not identical in terms of their meaning in German or English


NickWatson
Germany
Local time: 18:04
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in pair: 36
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21 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
pp


Explanation:
In my experience, someone who has power to actually represent the company (e.g. director) would sign i.V., whereas someone whith only derived power would sign i.A.

Usually the guy actually producing the document signs i.A. at the bottom left, and when the matter is sufficiently important someone more senior would sign i.V. further to the right.

However, I am not aware of a similar distinction in the English usage.

Not much help for you, though, I suppose....

Sandra Schlatter
Local time: 17:04
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 95

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Beate Lutzebaeck: I agree with the translation, but not with the explanation
5 hrs
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24 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
In support of Martin


Explanation:
Martin got it almost right.

i.A. Im Auftrag
i.V. In Vertretung

you can say that one sign on order of.., the other in proxy.

But the result is the same for both signatures have no legal value.

Sometimes a person signs with i.A. , tomorrow, he may sign i.V.

ppa has legal value, the person who sign that way is representing the company and mentioned in the commercial registry.

Maya Jurt
Switzerland
Local time: 18:04
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in pair: 545
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42 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
for & on behalf of


Explanation:
Standard phrase to indicate, that one is acting on somebody else's instructions

aldrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:04
PRO pts in pair: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Karl Apsel: yes... I never thought of that one...
53 mins
agree  Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
1 hr
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Let's try and get this straight ... :)


Explanation:
Can we agree that:

if a secretary writes an ordinary business letter for his/her boss and the boss is not able to or not willing to sign it him- or herself, that the secretary will sign the letter

"i.A." = im Auftrag

if a co-worker or similar writes a letter for a colleague who is for example on holidays or out of the office, the co-worker will sign the letter

"i.V." = in Vertretung

Can we further agree (or argue?) that both abbreviations are of no legal relevance (as far as I know anyway).

In my experience letters as described above are marked "pp".

And is this not what the question refers to???

"For or on behalf of" is an alternative eventhough I only came across it when directors of limited companies signed documents on behalf of the company and in order to avoid personal liability.

FIRE !!! :)


Karl Apsel
Ireland
Local time: 17:04
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 94

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  hschl
1 hr
agree  Beate Lutzebaeck: No FIRE - I agree with every single point you made
1 hr
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
just leave them out.....


Explanation:
If these terms appear at the bottom of a letter in front of someone's typed out name they mean

i.A. = im Auftrag
i.V. = in Vertetung (in Vertretung der Gesellschaft)

the i.V. signature is always on the left, i.A. is always on the right. The i.A. guy generally always writes the letter, but needs the guy with "i.V." to sign it too to make this letter an official declaration of intent according to the BGB (whereby only those who are specifically authorized to do so can legally represent the company for certain transactions).

Now, the problem is that there is no such system of signing letters in the English speaking world.

If a secretary signs a letter for her boss because he is out of the office, then she puts "pp" in front of her signature, but this is a different story entirely.

So..... I'll run the risk here of getting shot down by my colleagues and would just leave them out (unless of course it is vital to the meaning of the document that you put some equivalent in).


    Source: many years of working for German companies
Alison Schwitzgebel
France
Local time: 18:04
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 3409
Grading comment
I like the totally new approach best!
Thanks for the clarification of legal differences, which I wasn't aware of, but my problem is really more one of usage. I was toying with the 'pp', but without the iV/iA convention in English it seems most sensible to me to leave them out.
Thanks to all who replied.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Karl Apsel: hehe, a totally new approach :)
12 mins
disagree  Bruno Andries: Although it may be redundant in many cases, you can't just leave it out, as it may have legal repercussions in some cases.as it
6737 days
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