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Vom Vorbildlichen zum Urbildlichen

English translation: From the exemplary to the archetypal


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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:Vom Vorbildlichen zum Urbildlichen
English translation:From the exemplary to the archetypal
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18:45 Jan 26, 2012
    The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2012-01-30 08:54:08 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)


German to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Philosophy / art philosophy
German term or phrase: Vom Vorbildlichen zum Urbildlichen
Dear fellow translators,

This is a text by Paul Klee, which was translated as you will find below. The closing sentence - From type to prototype - needs to be re-translated from German to English. The German text says "Vom Vorbildlichen sum Urbildlichen". German is not my working language, so I would ask a German translator to help me. It's quite urgent, as it is usually the case. Thank you very much in advance. Csilla

Does the artist concern himself with microscopy? History? Palaeontology?
Only for purposes of comparison, only in the exercise of his mobility of mind. And not to provide a scientific check on the truth of nature.
Only in the sense of freedom.
In the sense of a freedom, which does not lead to fixed phases of development, representing exactly what nature once was, or will be, or could be on another star (as perhaps may one day be proved).
But in the sense of a freedom which merely demands its rights, the right to develop, as great Nature herself develops.
From type to prototype.
Csilla Jaray-Benn
France
Local time: 14:15
From the exemplary to the archetypal
Explanation:
This Klee quote is quite famous – it even serves as title of scholarly articles, i.e. Tilman Osterwold: Paul Klee. Vom Vorbildlichen zum Urbildlichen, in: Paul Klee. Vorbild-Urbild. Frühwerk-Spätwerk, Kat. Ausst., Landessammlung Rupertinum, Salzburg 1986.
http://tiny.cc/aj1ig

A bit of background: Klee coined the term in his „Form- und Gestaltungslehre: Unendliche Naturgeschichte“ Band 2, translated into English by Heinz Norden as 'The Nature of Nature' Volume 2
Art historians seem to translate this as From the exemplary to the archetypal :

The Oberlin portrait and others of this period mark the beginning of Jawlensky's search for the archetype: the "Gesichter" (faces) become "Gesichte" (visions), or as Klee formulated, "Vom Vorbildlichen zum Urbildlichen" (from the exemplary to the archetypal).
http://www.oberlin.edu/amam/Jawlensky_Head.htm

Fellow artist Paul Klee described this change as a transition "from the exemplary to the archetypal" (Paul Klee, Das bildnerische Denken, Basel, 1956, p. 93)
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LotDetailsPrintable.aspx?...

I even found the /a French translation, I hope you are thoroughly impressed! !!!

du modèle à la matrice

“Klee reprend partiellement et parfois fidèlement à son compte ce champ sémantique de l’origine il appelle cependant dans sa conférence sur l’art modern tenue à Jena en 1924 avec exaltation à remonter du modèle à la matrice (Vom Vorbildlichen zum Urbildlichen !)”

http://www.scribd.com/frougerie/d/60286198-Formes-du-vegetal

Selected response from:

Johanna Timm, PhD
Canada
Local time: 05:15
Grading comment
Thank you very much, Johanna for your suggestion and the references. It was really helpful!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +3From the exemplary to the archetypal
Johanna Timm, PhD
3 +2From the ideal/model to the archetypal
Helen Shiner


  

Answers


6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
From the exemplary to the archetypal


Explanation:
This Klee quote is quite famous – it even serves as title of scholarly articles, i.e. Tilman Osterwold: Paul Klee. Vom Vorbildlichen zum Urbildlichen, in: Paul Klee. Vorbild-Urbild. Frühwerk-Spätwerk, Kat. Ausst., Landessammlung Rupertinum, Salzburg 1986.
http://tiny.cc/aj1ig

A bit of background: Klee coined the term in his „Form- und Gestaltungslehre: Unendliche Naturgeschichte“ Band 2, translated into English by Heinz Norden as 'The Nature of Nature' Volume 2
Art historians seem to translate this as From the exemplary to the archetypal :

The Oberlin portrait and others of this period mark the beginning of Jawlensky's search for the archetype: the "Gesichter" (faces) become "Gesichte" (visions), or as Klee formulated, "Vom Vorbildlichen zum Urbildlichen" (from the exemplary to the archetypal).
http://www.oberlin.edu/amam/Jawlensky_Head.htm

Fellow artist Paul Klee described this change as a transition "from the exemplary to the archetypal" (Paul Klee, Das bildnerische Denken, Basel, 1956, p. 93)
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LotDetailsPrintable.aspx?...

I even found the /a French translation, I hope you are thoroughly impressed! !!!

du modèle à la matrice

“Klee reprend partiellement et parfois fidèlement à son compte ce champ sémantique de l’origine il appelle cependant dans sa conférence sur l’art modern tenue à Jena en 1924 avec exaltation à remonter du modèle à la matrice (Vom Vorbildlichen zum Urbildlichen !)”

http://www.scribd.com/frougerie/d/60286198-Formes-du-vegetal



Johanna Timm, PhD
Canada
Local time: 05:15
Does not meet criteria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 24
Grading comment
Thank you very much, Johanna for your suggestion and the references. It was really helpful!
Notes to answerer
Asker: Johanna, thank you very much for your help, I've chosen your suggestion to complete the text. Actually, I had the French translation as a basis…


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Usch Pilz
6 hrs

agree  Nicola Wood
7 hrs

neutral  Helen Shiner: Hmmm, doesn't make it a good translation, though, somewhat missing the point of 'vorbildlich' here, and asker had asked for retranslation. My presumption then was that that was what she wanted.
7 hrs

agree  Ilse Schwender: toll.........:)
13 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
From the ideal/model to the archetypal


Explanation:
This is literally what it means. It is in part talking about his art being based less on ancient classical influences, and more on pre-ancient sources. He obviously sees Nature doing something similar. I think I would prefer to go with 'ideal to archetypal'.

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Note added at 1 hr (2012-01-26 20:31:09 GMT)
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The idea of the Ideal in this sense comes from Plato's Theory of Form and is also found in Kant and Schopenhauer, I believe. A sort of prototype that pre-exists form: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/course/com3118/Plato.html

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2012-01-26 20:31:57 GMT)
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That should be 'Theory of Forms'.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2012-01-26 20:51:47 GMT)
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And then the Jungian notion of archetypes was so important to Klee's work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2012-01-27 08:40:49 GMT)
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Hi Csilla, since you asked for a retranslation, I started from first principles, presuming what had gone before was inadequate. 'Exemplary' really does miss the point, I think. A difficult one for you. It might be worth asking your client what they think.

Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:15
Meets criteria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 39
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you Helen for your suggestion, it helped me understand better what this term really means.

Asker: Thank you Helen for your suggestion, it helped me understand better what this term really means.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Ramey Rieger: yes, from model answers the question
20 hrs
  -> Thanks, Ramey, though I prefer 'ideal' here.

agree  Bernhard Sulzer: from "pre-archetypal to ..." would be another poss.: http://www.mythopoetry.com/mythopoetics/scholar11_toews_quan... / "ideal" is cool with me.
1 day33 mins
  -> Thanks, Bernhard, a shame though not to use ideal in the Platonic/Schopenhauerian sense.
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