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Überlieferungszeugen

English translation: version

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17:42 Aug 2, 2004
German to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature / Early New High German literature
German term or phrase: Überlieferungszeugen
Erfassung und Beschreibung der Überlieferungszeugen sehr unvollständig und nicht auf heutigem Stand.

The Überlieferung is a particular story that was passed on in manuscript form during the Middle Ages. The notes refer to the shortcomings of a particular book about the old story, but I can't quite work out who the Überlieferungszeugen are.
Armorel Young
Local time: 11:03
English translation:version
Explanation:
IMHO "Zeuge", here, most definitely does not refer to an individual. Based on the examples below, I also don't think that it refers to a particular manuscript, but rather to a certain version, or variant, of the original story. The 'Überlieferung bit' is redundant.


Die Bedeutung der ***Handschrift für die Veldeke-Forschung liegt darin, dass sie einerseits der früheste vollständig erhaltene Überlieferungszeuge des Eneasromans*** ist, andererseits sich als frühestes Exemplar eines illustrierten deutschsprachigen Romans überhaupt präsentiert.
http://www.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/downloads/aderlass.htm...

-------

Der in den Jahren zwischen 1200 und 1210 entstandene Versroman liegt gegenwärtig in leicht überarbeiteten Ausgaben der maßgeblichen Edition von Karl Lachmann aus dem Jahr 1833 vor. Lachmann war sich bewusst, dass er anhand der ihm verfügbaren ***Textzeugen*** keinen Autortext erstellen konnte, aber letztlich zielte sein Editionsverfahren doch auf einen solchen Autortext hin.
[...]Die Textfassung lautet hier zumeist (in normalisierter Schreibweise): Parzivâl zuo im dô sprach. Dabei wird die Zeitangabe dô ("damals") um den Hinweis auf den Adressaten der Rede - nämlich Anfortas - erweitert. ***Nur ein Überlieferungszeuge, die Handschrift R***, verzichtet völlig auf diese Angaben.

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/zdv/zrlinfo/prot/prot871-parz.ht...

------

Ein neuer Überlieferungszeuge von Johann Hartliebs Kräuterbuch: Die Handschrift 'Ms. 46 ...
www.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/cgi-bin/htsearch?method=and& format=built-in-long&sort=score&config=htd
Selected response from:

Johanna Timm, PhD
Canada
Local time: 03:03
Grading comment
I'm not yet sure I have the definite answer to this one, but your suggestion certainly fits well in some of the contexts I have.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +1literary works passed on from generation to generation
karin förster handley
5manuscripts
Maria Ferstl
4chroniclergangels
4witnesses to the tradition
Robert Schlarb
3version
Johanna Timm, PhD
1written histories
Jonathan MacKerron


Discussion entries: 3





  

Answers


24 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
literary works passed on from generation to generation


Explanation:
I agree with Richard. I think here the "zeugen" are the works. Oral Tradition would be überlieferung, the method, and not a given story.

karin förster handley
Local time: 07:03
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in SpanishSpanish, Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Christine Lam: I like this version, too
1 hr
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
Überlieferungszeugen
manuscripts


Explanation:
except if there is a more specific English term

The sentence means that the documentation and description of the manuscripts containing the different versions of the work concerned (because for medieval works there are usually a lot of versions, as no copyright and no concept of intellectual property existed) are not in accordance with the philological state of the art, and they are probably both inaccurate and old-fashioned. In such books on an ancient or medieval work there is always made an accurate description of the manuscripts, they are compared as concerns their age and liability and some sort of genealogical tree (stemma) is made up to show which versions presuppose which.

There are also many google hits for Überlieferungszeugen that show that this is meant.

http://www.google.com.gr/search?q=cache:vmui1ATyYbQJ:www.uni...
http://www.google.com.gr/search?q=cache:1yCPGCnK6LoJ:www-fak...
http://www.google.com.gr/search?q=cache:JXHYYS7MjFgJ:www.uni...
http://www.google.com.gr/search?q=cache:IVSEMKx7kx4J:www.par...
http://www.google.com.gr/search?q=cache:Xd1SalgRIJwJ:www.aka...

Maria Ferstl
Malta
Local time: 12:03
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Robert Schlarb: a witness may be a known author (whose manuscript is extant or not) or simply an anonymous manuscript; what you are describing is source history and not tradition history
5 mins
  -> You might be right, but since her other question is on critical apparatus it looks like this kind of stuff. Anyway your term looks good.

neutral  Richard Benham: There is an expression "manuscript tradition", but I'm not sure if that's what's intended. It's 10 years since I worked on mediaeval manuscripts.//It's good fun, but is unlikely to pay the bills.
21 mins
  -> I, too, gave up classical scholarship for Modern Greek Philology and then the latter for translation. ;-)
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Überlieferungszeugen
witnesses to the tradition


Explanation:
This is quite a common term within Traditionskritik (tradition criticism) that refers to written testimony to a certain tradition, usually conceived of as originally oral. For example, die Gebrüder Grimm are witnesses to oral fairy tale traditions cited by other authors as well.
In this case, the Überlieferung is the story assumed to have originally existed orally which has been passed down in the writings of the witnesses (mündliche Überlieferung vs schriftliche Überlieferung).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 32 mins (2004-08-02 19:15:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

With reference to Maria (I believe your 5 is overconfident):
Many cases exist in which no manuscript of an author witnessing to a certain tradition exist, that author\'s testimony has, however, survived because of a later author\'s citing of it. The best example of this is the relationship between Socrates and Plato; we would know nothing of the philosohical traditions Socrates espoused if Plato had not recorded them, because Socrates himself left behind no writings (or at least we have no manuscripts of them).

Robert Schlarb
Local time: 12:03
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Richard Benham: I used to be a mediaevalist, and the phrase doesn't ring any bells with me. I'm afraid my memory's shot.
19 mins
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
chronicler


Explanation:
is the word generally used in such context

gangels
Local time: 04:03
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 28
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Überlieferungszeugen
version


Explanation:
IMHO "Zeuge", here, most definitely does not refer to an individual. Based on the examples below, I also don't think that it refers to a particular manuscript, but rather to a certain version, or variant, of the original story. The 'Überlieferung bit' is redundant.


Die Bedeutung der ***Handschrift für die Veldeke-Forschung liegt darin, dass sie einerseits der früheste vollständig erhaltene Überlieferungszeuge des Eneasromans*** ist, andererseits sich als frühestes Exemplar eines illustrierten deutschsprachigen Romans überhaupt präsentiert.
http://www.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/downloads/aderlass.htm...

-------

Der in den Jahren zwischen 1200 und 1210 entstandene Versroman liegt gegenwärtig in leicht überarbeiteten Ausgaben der maßgeblichen Edition von Karl Lachmann aus dem Jahr 1833 vor. Lachmann war sich bewusst, dass er anhand der ihm verfügbaren ***Textzeugen*** keinen Autortext erstellen konnte, aber letztlich zielte sein Editionsverfahren doch auf einen solchen Autortext hin.
[...]Die Textfassung lautet hier zumeist (in normalisierter Schreibweise): Parzivâl zuo im dô sprach. Dabei wird die Zeitangabe dô ("damals") um den Hinweis auf den Adressaten der Rede - nämlich Anfortas - erweitert. ***Nur ein Überlieferungszeuge, die Handschrift R***, verzichtet völlig auf diese Angaben.

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/zdv/zrlinfo/prot/prot871-parz.ht...

------

Ein neuer Überlieferungszeuge von Johann Hartliebs Kräuterbuch: Die Handschrift 'Ms. 46 ...
www.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/cgi-bin/htsearch?method=and& format=built-in-long&sort=score&config=htd

Johanna Timm, PhD
Canada
Local time: 03:03
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 65
Grading comment
I'm not yet sure I have the definite answer to this one, but your suggestion certainly fits well in some of the contexts I have.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

13 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 1/5Answerer confidence 1/5
Überlieferungszeugen
written histories


Explanation:
might fit

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs 30 mins (2004-08-03 07:13:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

\"handed down writings\" gets 7 googles

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs 32 mins (2004-08-03 07:15:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

\"authors of the historical manuscripts\"

Jonathan MacKerron
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 67
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