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székelykapu

English translation: Szekely gate (carved, ornamental wooden gate)

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Hungarian term or phrase:székelykapu
English translation:Szekely gate (carved, ornamental wooden gate)
Entered by: Endre Both
Options:
- Contribute to this entry
- Include in personal glossary

12:39 Mar 24, 2002
Hungarian to English translations [Non-PRO]
Hungarian term or phrase: székelykapu
Székelykapu, mint kaputípus
Farkas Eszter
Szekely gate (carved, ornamental wooden gate)
Explanation:
Depens on the type of text and its audience.

In a literary text, the gloss alone would probably suffice, saving the reader the disruption caused by an explanation in parentheses or in a footnote/endnote.

In a specialised text dealing e.g. with folk architecture, I would prefer "Szekely gate" or even "székelykapu" supplemented by an explanation in brackets (more or less elaborate, depending once again on the text and your target readership).

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Note added at 2002-03-24 13:46:48 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I suspect that in folk art literature \"Szekely\" is more common than \"Szekler\". But since I am not an ethnologist, don\'t take my word for it.

However, an additional reason why I endorse \"Szekely\" is that it is adapted directly from Hungarian, the language of the Szekelys, as opposed to \"Szekler\", which is borrowed from German, if I\'m not mistaken.

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Note added at 2002-03-24 15:08:56 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

On László Bochkor\'s comment:

Personal preferences can be based on etymology (which is why I prefer \"Szekely\"). However, I don\'t think they are a good basis for judgments like \"mispronunciation\" (mistranslation, maybe?) and \"correct\". In my view, this type of judgment should (where it cannot be avoided) be based on use in English-speaking communities.

As to the use of a Romanian-English dictionary: if you need a translation from A to B and you know the translation from A to C, I believe it is a perfectly valid approach to look into a C-to-B dictionary for inspiration.

And finally: courtesy above all, please. Remember the endless debate and the personal affronts in the \"Rubik\'s cube\" question. Thanks.
Selected response from:

Endre Both
Germany
Local time: 00:57
Grading comment
Although it was a rather difficult question, you answered it very well. Thank you very much!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +5Szekely gate (carved, ornamental wooden gate)
Endre Both
5On Endre Both's comment:bochkor
5SeclarMarika4150
5"székelykapu" (Szekely gate)xxxivw
4 -1Sekler gate
Elvira Stoianov


  

Answers


43 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +5
Szekely gate (carved, ornamental wooden gate)


Explanation:
Depens on the type of text and its audience.

In a literary text, the gloss alone would probably suffice, saving the reader the disruption caused by an explanation in parentheses or in a footnote/endnote.

In a specialised text dealing e.g. with folk architecture, I would prefer "Szekely gate" or even "székelykapu" supplemented by an explanation in brackets (more or less elaborate, depending once again on the text and your target readership).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-03-24 13:46:48 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I suspect that in folk art literature \"Szekely\" is more common than \"Szekler\". But since I am not an ethnologist, don\'t take my word for it.

However, an additional reason why I endorse \"Szekely\" is that it is adapted directly from Hungarian, the language of the Szekelys, as opposed to \"Szekler\", which is borrowed from German, if I\'m not mistaken.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-03-24 15:08:56 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

On László Bochkor\'s comment:

Personal preferences can be based on etymology (which is why I prefer \"Szekely\"). However, I don\'t think they are a good basis for judgments like \"mispronunciation\" (mistranslation, maybe?) and \"correct\". In my view, this type of judgment should (where it cannot be avoided) be based on use in English-speaking communities.

As to the use of a Romanian-English dictionary: if you need a translation from A to B and you know the translation from A to C, I believe it is a perfectly valid approach to look into a C-to-B dictionary for inspiration.

And finally: courtesy above all, please. Remember the endless debate and the personal affronts in the \"Rubik\'s cube\" question. Thanks.


    Reference: http://www.hungary.com/corvinus/lib/timeless/chapter14.htm
Endre Both
Germany
Local time: 00:57
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman, Native in HungarianHungarian
PRO pts in pair: 82
Grading comment
Although it was a rather difficult question, you answered it very well. Thank you very much!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  bochkor: Correct, Szekler's -er ending comes from German, so why should the whole world adopt a Germanized mispronounciation, when the correct word is Szekely for this ethnic group? So Szekely gate is the best translation. Also,what has Romanian got to do with it?
43 mins
  -> Please see response in my answer.

agree  Csaba Ban: 20 hits on Google for "Székely/Szekely gate" and 2 hits for "Sekler gate". No hits for "Szekler gate"
1 hr

agree  xxxivw: Suggestion and explanation are both correct. I would perhaps squeeze in a brief introduction who the Szekelys are, but only if it's relevant in the given context.
3 hrs

agree  Marika4150
17 hrs

agree  dr. Varga
19 hrs
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45 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
Sekler gate


Explanation:
My Romanian English dictionary says Se(c)kler for szekely, but I only found it it connection with gate with the above spelling.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-03-24 13:30:42 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

sorry, my dictionary actually lists sZe(c)kler with a Z, and you will find lots of references on Google that use Szekler to refer to the district in Transylvania

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-03-24 13:31:39 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

sorry, my dictionary actually lists sZe(c)kler with a Z, and you will find lots of references on Google that use Szeckler to refer to the district in Transylvania

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-03-24 13:35:14 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

502 hits for szekler
73 hits for szeckler


    Reference: http://www.bogardi.com/had/en/enuiotxe.shtml
Elvira Stoianov
Luxembourg
Local time: 00:57
Native speaker of: Native in RomanianRomanian, Native in HungarianHungarian
PRO pts in pair: 55

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  xxxivw: "502 hits for szekler...." and 39,600 hits for "szekely" - so what? A search engine might come handy when we are totally in the dark but should never be used as a reference. The worst translations I've ever seen are online!
12 hrs
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13 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
"székelykapu" (Szekely gate)


Explanation:
As an addition to Dinnye's posting which no doubt deserves the points and is correct in all aspect, please read here some more:

"The entrance to the Kalotaszeg or Szekely house is usually through an ornamental wooden gate, shingle-capped, carved, coloured or painted, with high side posts. These are called the "székelykapu" (Szekely gate). In Szekely regions the gates are
more elaborate; the carved columns are ornamented with flower motifs, allegorical, mythical figures and runic writing. Among the flower-motifs the tulip and rose are the most frequent. They are reminiscent of old pagan symbolism the tulip represents the
male principle, the rose the feminine symbol. Another unique custom in Szekelyland is the use of the carved wooden headboards in cemeteries: these are called kopjafa (lance-tip). The inscriptions are often humorous."

Follow the link and you'll see a picture of it.


    Reference: http://www.hungary.com/corvinus/lib/timeless/chapter14.htm
xxxivw
PRO pts in pair: 52
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18 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
Seclar


Explanation:
This is some more help. I missed to add a comment to my agree grade. I've met this spelling very often, and this is the one they use most of the time (ex.in monographies). So if anyone of you has the time should search for it.
As far as I can remember the book titled 'Hungary - a Brief History' has this spelling, too.

Marika4150
Romania
Local time: 01:57
PRO pts in pair: 1
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23 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
On Endre Both's comment:


Explanation:
<quote>
agree László Bochkor: Correct, Szekler's -er ending comes from German, so why should the whole world adopt a Germanized mispronounciation, when the correct word is Szekely for this ethnic group? So Szekely gate is the best translation. Also,what has Romanian got to do with it?
> Please see response in my answer.

On László Bochkor's comment:

Personal preferences can be based on etymology (which is why I prefer "Szekely"). However, I don't think they are a good basis for judgments like "mispronunciation" (mistranslation, maybe?) and "correct". In my view, this type of judgment should (where it cannot be avoided) be based on use in English-speaking communities.

As to the use of a Romanian-English dictionary: if you need a translation from A to B and you know the translation from A to C, I believe it is a perfectly valid approach to look into a C-to-B dictionary for inspiration.

And finally: courtesy above all, please. Remember the endless debate and the personal affronts in the "Rubik's cube" question. Thanks.
</quote>

First of all, as you can see from my original reply above, I never said "personal preferences" or "I prefer", so please, don't put words in my mouth! My choice was solely based on linguistics.

Secondly, "mispronounciation" is not a judgment, but a fact, when you consider that the original word is undoubtedly Hungarian, which renders ALL others as mispronounciations. If you can't deal with it, too bad.

Regarding your colorful ABC example, your problem is that you overlooked that the request was for Hungarian-to-English translation only, so in a certain language pair, not language triangle. So it stands that German, Romanian, Chinese, etc. should not be a factor in your decision making = has nothing to do with it, like it or not.

Lastly, exactly what should have been learned from the Rubik's cube discussion is that if the KudoZ question is not for a language pair (= 2 languages for slower people) you are proficient in, better keep quiet. However, people just LOVE to add their 2 cents, even if they know nothing about the subject. Did (the Rubik's cube) history just repeat itself? Has nobody learned anything from it?

bochkor
Local time: 18:57
Native speaker of: Native in HungarianHungarian, Native in GermanGerman

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Will Matter: arrogant, hostile and condescending attitudes have no place in ProZ.
781 days
  -> In other words, you have no argument to the above, you're just talking. That's exactly what's wrong! And THAT is rather what we don't need on ProZ! Oh, by the way, it's "on Proz" and not "in ProZ". So-called language professionals, tell me about it...
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