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20:37 Dec 22, 2011
Italian to English translations [PRO] Art/Literary - Architecture / Book on design in architecture
Italian term or phrase:i saperi della forma
This is the surrounding text:
"Come sempre è possibile però una lettura che mostri anche l’altra faccia della medaglia. La forte separazione che si è ingenerata fra i saperi della costruzione (strutture e tecnologia) ed *i saperi della forma* non sarebbe da attribuire al totale disinteresse dei *saperi della forma* stessa nei confronti degli altri saperi quanto ad un processo di settorializzazione e di suddivisione delle competenze, al fine di meglio controllare gli sviluppi gestionali ed i momenti decisionali."
"saperi della construzione" is easy "construction expertise" or "construction technology". "Knowledge of form" or "form expertise" just doesn't seem to mean anything. I don't want to use "artistic expertise" because, he's already talked about that and it is classified differently. I can't make that connection, which he doesn't make. Something like "spatial composition" isn't quite the same thing.
Explanation: I think "design know-how" versus "construction know-how" seems to work pretty well here. It highlights the difference between practical talent and aesthetic talent.
That is the most useful information: that there is no set term for this. He has already (a few pages before) quoted Le Corbusier "you are an organiser not a drawing board artist", but here he talks only of form as a function totally separated from the boys doing the building on site (that is what he means by "saperi"). That is clear from the general context. I often find when talking to authors (planners and architects) when they are being what seems totally abstract that what they are actually thinking is very concrete. Faced with pages of complete metaphysics, I asked one author, "Do you mean Sesto San Giovanni?" (Near Milan) "Yes, precisely!" He replied.
No flashes of inspiration. On reflection I think it might be best to stick with form. One or two ideas for saperi that might conceivably be used with costruzione as well: prowess with ..., mastery of ...
The idea of shapes is very pertinent to Gehry's buildings. A relevant word often used in architectural jargon is "modelling". I'm too tired to suggest a complete answer!
I have studied this and I think that the writer is saying that just because the architect is creating these wacky 'confusing' (ingenerata implies this) forms (as I saw in the links, very famous stuff as well), it doesn't mean that he is indifferent (disinteresse) to the shapes or forms. In fact, his decisions are quite precise and he is in perfect control of everything. I'll continue with a translation in my notes..
Glinda Local time: 01:50 Native speaker of: Italian PRO pts in category: 3
Notes to answerer
Asker: I did consider "shape" here and often use it to translate form, but it just doesn't work here. Designers aren't "shapers", even if that is what they do. So far I have "artistic expertise (form)" in brackets, even if I don't really want to use the word "artistic".
Explanation: I would play around with different definitions all pertaining to his understanding of architecture. Use different words for 'saperi' - knowledge, understanding, awarness,
maybe 'shape consciousness' for this phrase...expertise implies perfection and upon a quick look at wiki, it seems a bit different, he might be an expert at what he does though...check it out..
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 51 mins (2011-12-22 21:28:51 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
saperi della costruizone = praxis of construction (what is actually practiced in construction, the
saperi della forma = (theoretical) understanding of shapes/forms...principles like Dr Seuss said could work here too.
It is the difference between praxis and theory.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 3 hrs (2011-12-22 23:41:47 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Last thought for tonight : It seems like you're trying to work out a common word for 'saperi'..maybe 'sense' ..sense of consruction, sense of shapes...
jasonwkingsley France Local time: 01:50 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 4
Notes to answerer
Asker: That is fine, but if you look at the context, the author is also using saperi as a metonym for all the architect designers and what they do and for all the builders and what they do and you can't do that with knowledge, understanding or awareness in English. You can with expertise and I've tried playing with that.
Asker: My expertise is in translation, but I'm not quite perfect at it yet, give me another life time or two. He is saying the building expertise and pure architectural design expertise have little in common. The two disciplines have become separated.
the disciplines related to form ("of the form/al")
Explanation: as opposed to the disciplines of building/construction.
I'm fairly convinced that the use of both terms is intended in a loftier and more general manner than mere expertise. Rather, one could consider even a more poetic, and still loftier, "sciences", which, after all, are but "saperi".
That's how I personally would be tempted to translate it – maybe in inverted commas: the sciences of building/construction and the sciences of (the) form(al).
Substantially, there's an even more outrageous example of the "split" than Gehry: Colatrava. He doesn't even bother, or is able to, produce architectural drawings: just makes aquarelles and tells the engineers, "build it!". His is a pure discipline of the form... to the total chagrin of the builder. Generally, architects are progressively becoming all builders' nightmare.
Michael Korovkin Local time: 01:50 Works in field Native speaker of: English, Russian PRO pts in category: 20
Explanation: I think "design know-how" versus "construction know-how" seems to work pretty well here. It highlights the difference between practical talent and aesthetic talent.
Neptunia Local time: 01:50 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
On balance this obvious simplification is probably the best compromise.
The translation workplace 
