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dottore commercialista

English translation: certified public accountant

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Italian term or phrase:dottore commercialista
English translation:certified public accountant
Entered by: Derek Smith
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18:07 Jul 13, 2002
Italian to English translations [PRO]
Bus/Financial
Italian term or phrase: dottore commercialista
Hi folks
I have "dottore commercialista" and "ragioniere commercialista" and I have thus far called 'em all "accountant". I guess the difference refers to their educational background, but does anyone know of a reliable translation that takes this into erm account?
"chartered accountant"? nah...
TIA
Derek
Derek Smith
Local time: 03:57
Yes
Explanation:
the difference lies in the education

dottore commercialista - university
ragioniere - high school

Book-keeper is ok for ragioniere (source: me)
and
certified public account = commercialista (source: Francesco de Franchis Dizionario giuridico)

HTH

Bye
Antonella



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Note added at 2002-07-14 12:02:11 (GMT) Post-grading
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I meant \'accountant\', sorry for the mistake, and thanks
Selected response from:

Antonella Andreella
Italy
Local time: 03:57
Grading comment
Thanks Antonella et al - looks like this really is a can of worms as I had feared. Certified accountant/bookkeeper is probably the most reliable solution, but unfortunately the headed notepaper of this distinguished practice tells me that the "ragioniere commercialista" has the same surname as the firm, while the other (more qualified) people in the list are apparently mere plug-ins. This being the case, I am reluctant to use bookkeeper, because to my ear it sounds like calling Mohammed Al Fayed a "shopkeeper".
Since, as some folks have pointed out, the educational distinction is untranslatable, I suppose a justifiable solution might be to leave the Italian, maybe with "accountant" in parentheses.
All the answers I have received here have been illuminating in what is a spectacularly unexciting area of research (as David points out, visiting the Ragionieri Commercialisti website is not a mood-enhancing experience). Thank you all indeed for your time and trouble.
Total Respect,
Derek
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +3YesAntonella Andreella
4 +2Vd sottogmel117608
4-
Ornella Grannis
4accountant
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
4chartered accountant ...Anna Beria
4chartered accountantdavidholme


  

Answers


24 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
Yes


Explanation:
the difference lies in the education

dottore commercialista - university
ragioniere - high school

Book-keeper is ok for ragioniere (source: me)
and
certified public account = commercialista (source: Francesco de Franchis Dizionario giuridico)

HTH

Bye
Antonella



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-07-14 12:02:11 (GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

I meant \'accountant\', sorry for the mistake, and thanks


Antonella Andreella
Italy
Local time: 03:57
Native speaker of: Italian
PRO pts in pair: 442
Grading comment
Thanks Antonella et al - looks like this really is a can of worms as I had feared. Certified accountant/bookkeeper is probably the most reliable solution, but unfortunately the headed notepaper of this distinguished practice tells me that the "ragioniere commercialista" has the same surname as the firm, while the other (more qualified) people in the list are apparently mere plug-ins. This being the case, I am reluctant to use bookkeeper, because to my ear it sounds like calling Mohammed Al Fayed a "shopkeeper".
Since, as some folks have pointed out, the educational distinction is untranslatable, I suppose a justifiable solution might be to leave the Italian, maybe with "accountant" in parentheses.
All the answers I have received here have been illuminating in what is a spectacularly unexciting area of research (as David points out, visiting the Ragionieri Commercialisti website is not a mood-enhancing experience). Thank you all indeed for your time and trouble.
Total Respect,
Derek

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Anna Beria: I guess "book-keeper" for ragioniere is a good rendering
11 mins

agree  gmel117608
1 hr

agree  Vittorio Felaco: A giudicare da come stanno ragionando alcuni nella loro categoria ultimamente, non si meritano proprio di avere un titolo così promettente!
2 hrs
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26 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
chartered accountant


Explanation:
The dottori commorcialisti seem to call themselves "chartered accountant (and tax consultant" in English.

Unfortunately, the Ragionieri Commericalisti I've found on the Internet seem to do that as well.

What about "certified accountant" for them.

This ref "certified public accountant (n) ragioniere iscritto all'albo" from http://www.myenglishlink.com/inglesebiz/vocab.htm#C could back that up.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-07-13 18:49:30 (GMT)
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The Ragionieri Commercialisti have a website of course at http://www.consrag.it/# ... I was going to look through it to see who they are, but I got too bored.

Tur Vergata Univ. has post graduate courses for both \"Dottore commercialista\" and \"Ragioniere commercialista e perito commerciale\"
So the distinction is definitely not the accountant/bookkeeper one.


davidholme
Local time: 02:57
PRO pts in pair: 127
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34 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
chartered accountant ...


Explanation:
... is the nearest you'll get, Derek. The "dottore commercialista" has a - highly prized - degree from a "facolta' di economia e commercio", often from private universities (eg. Bocconi and Cattolica in Milan). He will have had a thorough grounding in economics, statistics and business management. Graduates are expected to take up management positions in firms or become high-fee self-employeds consultants. A "ragioniere commercialista" has a high-school diploma from an "Istituto Tecnico" where the basics of accounting and business administration are taught, as well as typing, the use of accounting machinery and two foreign languages (usually French and English). School leavers from such schools - if lucky - end up working in banks and firms' accounting depts, starting from the lower-paid clerking positions. Women tend to end up as secretaries. If they go for self-employment, you often find them running "condomini" or as estate agents.
Calling them "accountants" is perhaps overstating their training, but I don't see what else would do.

Anna Beria
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:57
PRO pts in pair: 156
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Vd sotto


Explanation:
dottore commercialista = public/professional accountant

ragioniere = accountant


un "chartered" accountan non è necessariamente un "dottore commercialista" . Chartered significa semplicemtne che il commercialista è iscritto all'albo professionale.

Almeno secondo il Grande Diz Picchi, Hoepli, 2001

Esempi vari che ti possono essere di aiuto:

ragioniere capo = chief accountant; Ragioniere capo dello Stato Paymaster-General (UK); ragioniere generale = chief accountant
2 un buon/un esperto ragioniere a good accountant.


Buon lavoro,

Giuseppe (Melecci)


gmel117608
Local time: 02:57
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian
PRO pts in pair: 78

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Vittorio Felaco
44 mins
  -> grazie, Vittorio

agree  Angela Monetta
11 hrs
  -> thnak you angelamon
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
accountant


Explanation:
Derek, you were right all along. They are both accountants, but the "dottore" is obviously more qualified (university degree against high school diploma) that the other. There is no difference in English. You cannot describe the former as "chartered", since it's something completely different in English. The problem is that there is no equivalent to a chartered accountant in Italy. No solution, I'm afraid.

Good luck.

G

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-07-13 20:53:54 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

mayne book-keeper vs accountant, as Antonella says.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-07-13 20:54:35 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

maybe book-keeper vs accountant as Antonella says.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-07-13 22:10:02 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

maybe book-keeper vs accountant as Antonella says.

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:57
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian
PRO pts in pair: 626
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9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
-


Explanation:
A dottore commercialista is either an accountant who is graduate in economics or a lawyer specialized in commercial laws. A ragioniere is an accountant.

Ornella Grannis
United States
Local time: 21:57
PRO pts in pair: 94
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