KudoZ home » Italian to English » Cooking / Culinary

prosciutto crudo di Parma **al fiocco**

English translation: fiocco di Parma (prime cuts of Parma ham from the lean side of the joint)

Advertisement

Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs
(or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.
GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Italian term or phrase:prosciutto crudo di Parma **al fiocco**
English translation:fiocco di Parma (prime cuts of Parma ham from the lean side of the joint)
Entered by: Nina Loveridge
Options:
- Contribute to this entry
- Include in personal glossary

22:17 Jul 4, 2007
Italian to English translations [PRO]
Cooking / Culinary
Italian term or phrase: prosciutto crudo di Parma **al fiocco**
This appears on a menu - no context or clues! Can anyone please help?
Nina Loveridge
Local time: 17:37
prime cuts of Parma ham from the lean side of the joint
Explanation:
...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2007-07-05 06:02:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You are right about the type of ham so:
On balance this should be "prime cuts of fiocco Parma ham from the lean side of the joint". This way the customer has a good idea of what he is eating and also has the name so that he can ask for it again. What I object to is the immediate, "you shouldn't translate it" without so much as a "but do explain", followed by "its like Parmiggiano". In the UK people would find difficulty in knowing how to pronounce Parmiggiano, which is very well know as "parmesan".

If it is in common useage like spaghetti then use it. If the customers have to ask what it is then you have a problem which the translation didn't solve.

I didn't mean to offend, but.. sometimes...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2007-07-05 08:18:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Yes I did, change my answer, my first one was wrong. Fiocco needs to be *part* of the translation.
But, if the majority of the customers (obviously not the gourmets) have to ask the waiter what it is, and if the waiter doesn't speak English then the translation has achieved no useful purpose.
BTW I'm getting awful hungry with this.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2007-07-05 14:21:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Liliana you said:
‘So according to your assumption, if you had to translate other Italian items in a menu like tiramisu', will you write "italian dessert, made with lady fingers, mascarpone cheese, eggs and coffe"?’ Precisely, Yes!!! but with the word tiramisù included, so I can ask for it again easily, having discovered what it is.
‘Or why not translating "pesto" as "sauce made of crushed basil, grated cheese, olive oil and pine nuts"?’ Yes precisely, but again with the word “pesto” included.

Part of the Sapir Whorf hypothesis is that at times translation becomes so difficult that it can only be achieved by writing copious notes. On another level just last Saturday evening, if the translation of the menu (South American restaurant) had included the words “in a cold soup of strong lemon jiuce”, I wouldn’t have ordered the dish of seafood “frutta di mare cotta” and wasted my money buying something I didn’t like and couldn’t eat. Gourmets and most of your links are definitely that type, don’t really need a translation.
Selected response from:

James (Jim) Davis
Seychelles
Local time: 20:37
Grading comment
Thanks very much - I decided to go for the Italian term plus your English description which seems like a good solution. Thanks again, Nina
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Advertisement


Summary of answers provided
5 +2Prosciutto di Parma al fiocco
dtranslators
4 +2prime cuts of Parma ham from the lean side of the joint
James (Jim) Davis
3 +2Fiocco di Parma (or Fiocco di prosciutto or Fiocco)
Liliana Roman-Hamilton
4cured prosciutto Parma twistGalya Ivanova
2 -1Thinly sliced "ribbons" of Parma hamAnna Maria Augustine at proZ.com


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


24 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
cured prosciutto Parma twist


Explanation:
"The traditional Bolognese menu of egg-based pasta, thick sauces and magical twists with the locally cured prosciutto and parmesan cheese leaves visitors supremely satisfied — if a bit more stuffed than after a Neapolitan seafood dinner."


    Reference: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,901021230-4...
Galya Ivanova
Netherlands
Local time: 18:37
Native speaker of: Native in BulgarianBulgarian, Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Liliana Roman-Hamilton: I don't think this is the actual meaning.
6 hrs

neutral  Giuseppina Gatta, MA (Hons): agree with Liliana.
6 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Prosciutto di Parma al fiocco


Explanation:
You shouldn't translate it. It's like Parmiggiano.
Prosciutto al fiocco is a very special and expensive type of raw prosciutto, aged for a specific time and obtained from the heart (center-cut) of a very specific part of the pork.
If you can't avoid to translate it I would suggest:
Heart of aged Prosciutto di Parma®


    Reference: http://www.parmashop.it/Parmashop/ns.asp?wci=prodinfo&lng=10...
    Reference: http://www.prosciuttodiparma.com/usa/quality/standard/
dtranslators
United States
Local time: 09:37
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  James (Jim) Davis: My favourite chef complains that he has to take time out of the kitchen to explain what the dishes are in his broken English. I complain I don't have time to translate for him. Great don't translate it keep it a secret. Excuse me. See my Answer below.
4 hrs

agree  Giuseppina Gatta, MA (Hons): I think it should not be translated and it should be given an explanation
4 hrs

agree  Liliana Roman-Hamilton: I agree with Giuseppina. Fiocco, like breasola, culatello, mozzarella, parmigiano etc must NOT be translated. But, as my colleague said, you can add an explanation.
5 hrs

agree  Luisa Fiorini
5 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): -1
Thinly sliced "ribbons" of Parma ham


Explanation:
This is what it means and seems appropriate for a menu should you wish to translate it.

Anna Maria Augustine at proZ.com
France
Local time: 18:37
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in FrenchFrench

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Giuseppina Gatta, MA (Hons): al fiocco does not mean thinly sliced ribbon, it is a kind of prosciutto
4 hrs

disagree  Liliana Roman-Hamilton: I don't think it's the actual meaning. As Giuseppina said, fiocco is a kind of ham.
4 hrs

agree  Galya Ivanova: I agree with Anna, the expression to translate is prosciutto "al fiocco" and not "Fiocco di Prosciutto". Al + noun suggests the way something is done.
8 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Fiocco di Parma (or Fiocco di prosciutto or Fiocco)


Explanation:
From what I have seen fiocco is a particular kind of ham produced in Emilia Romagna, therefore I would leave it in Italian.


I disagree with Jim, you don't translate breasola, culatello, prosciutto (the real Prosciutto di Parma is a trademark if I am not wrong) as you don't normally translate other products like brie, camembert or mozzarella.

Fiocco di Parma or Fiocco di Prosciutto simply Fiocco is mentioned ( in Italian ) among other specialties of Emilia Romagna, like bresaola, culatello, prosciutto.

Please see the links here below.

http://www.italiancookingandliving.com/tv/parma_2.html
We chat with Ugo Romani, the owner and executive chef of Ristorante Romani near Parma. He talks us through all the delicious cold cuts produced in this wonderful gastronomic paradise: prosciutto, of course, but also culatello, fiocco, culatta and more. Never heard of them? Well, don't miss the show to find out more.


This is a British website, and they don't translate it:

http://www.altissima.co.uk/oxford/food.htm
“Salumificio Ravanetti” was founded forty years ago in the heart of the hills of Parma. Experience and respect for tradition are blended with modern technology in the production of coppa, pancetta, fiocco and culatello.




This website explains really well the different kinds of products:
http://www.aaanetserv.com/salami/salami_italia.html
Culatello:

It is considered to be one of the most prestigious charcuterie products of the Italian tradition. It is made from the fresh rear pork legs, defatted and skinned, separating the muscle mass surrounding the femur. The front part of this joint is destined to the preparation of "Fiocco", that undergoes a shorter maturation period with respect to culatello.
Both Culatello and Fiocco are specialities coming from Parma, and the Culatello di Zibello has been given the DOC mark. Their nutritional facts are similar to those of defatted cured hams.


http://www.parmashop.it/Parmashop/ns.asp?wci=deptlist&lng=10...


This one is in Italian:
http://www.mangibene.it/products/fiocco_di_culatello_di_cano...




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2007-07-05 07:29:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I add a note here in response to Jim's remark, as there is not enough room in the reply box:.

As Nina mentioned it's simply an item on a menu', there is no clue, no context. Of course you can put an explanation near the term if you want, but the question asked by Nina referred to the name of the product "prosciutto di Parma al fiocco".

So according to your assumption, if you had to translate other Italian items in a menu like tiramisu', will you write "italian dessert, made with lady fingers, mascarpone cheese, eggs and coffe"? Or why not translating "pesto" as "sauce made of crushed basil, grated cheese, olive oil and pine nuts"?
Do you translate "pancetta" as well? Well, it IS bacon after all, one can say, but actually the typical italian kind of bacon is the one and only "pancetta" and even on Food TV here in the US it is still called pancetta if they are using the real italian product.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2007-07-05 08:04:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Even the Zagat uses the term "fiocco"

http://www.zagat.com/verticals/Menu.aspx?VID=8&R=114975&HID=...

=====================================


http://www.fioccodiparma.it/english/cx.htm
The ROSSI name as producers of traditional cured meat products dates back to 1800 when they began activity at the rear of their small village shop. Today the company specializes in the preparation of local specialties, uniting the experience gleaned over the years with the assurance offered by today's modern production technologies.

WHAT IS "FIOCCO"?
It is the smaller muscular section of the back legs of a pig and has no rind or bone.
The fiocco is first salted by hand and then covered (with the bladder) to better preserve and protect it.
Aging is the most important phase of the production process and it takes place in moist but well-ventilated cellars typical of the area around Fontanellato in the lowland farming region around Parma. It is here that this ham's unique flavor and aroma are developed.
Smaller than a culatello, it is very convenient and easy to serve.

INGREDIENTS
Pork meat, salt, spices. Sugars: dextrose, saccharose. Antioxidants: sodium ascorbate. Preservatives: sodium nitrite, potassium nitrate.
In its production, only the meat of full-weight, Italian-raised adult pigs is utilized.

SERVING INSTRUCTIONS AND SUGGESTIONS
First remove the outer string and clean the surface of any mold or dirt.
Soak it in warm water (one hour) to soften the outer casing. Then peel away as much or as little of the casing as required to expose the amount of meat to be sliced each time. Begin slicing from the larger end.

STORING
Fiocco should be stored in a cool environment (such as a cellar) or refrigerated. Cover the cut end only with plastic wrap.





http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=79093
Al Pompiere is not without culinary interest, however. In addition to a large wine list rich in wines of the Veneto and all of Italy, it offers a large selection of salumi including culatello di Zibello and fiocco di Parma (which we all shared) sliced throughout the evening on a big Berkel slicer by an older chap in a chef’s uniform. At the other end of the meal is the possibility of having several kinds of cheese from a counter in the back of the room loaded down with scores of varieties foreign, domestic and from la zona. It’s unfortunate that the cheeses are immobilized there and that the waiter goes and gets what comes as little slices fanned out on a plate with a few types of mostarda on the side. In between, we dined on food that was tasty, accessible trattoria cuisine that had no twists and turns, but enjoyable to eat. For my secondi, I had a risotto with the Piemontese cheese Castelmagna, followed by a tartare of veal, the latter a special of the day that was a mistake to order. The pastas that my wife’s cousin and his wife had received good grades, although I can’t recall what they were. The penultimate plate was my wife’s bistecca infused with rosemary oil. It gave New York steakhouses a run for the money with its tenderness and beefy taste. I draw a blank on most of the desserts about which there were no complaints. As for the hazelnut gelato I had, it was one I’ll never forget.




Liliana Roman-Hamilton
Local time: 09:37
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Luisa Fiorini
49 mins
  -> Grazie Luisa

neutral  James (Jim) Davis: "From what I have seen" Liliana you are uncertain what it is youself. Is an explanation called for on a menu or not? See above.
2 hrs
  -> Are you kidding? For your knowledge I'm Italian and "fiocco" being a typical Italian product is NOT translated like many other italian products. Period.// and I gave plenty of info to sustain my theory,you even agreed with me by CHANGING your first answer

agree  texjax DDS PhD
3 days16 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
prime cuts of Parma ham from the lean side of the joint


Explanation:
...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2007-07-05 06:02:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You are right about the type of ham so:
On balance this should be "prime cuts of fiocco Parma ham from the lean side of the joint". This way the customer has a good idea of what he is eating and also has the name so that he can ask for it again. What I object to is the immediate, "you shouldn't translate it" without so much as a "but do explain", followed by "its like Parmiggiano". In the UK people would find difficulty in knowing how to pronounce Parmiggiano, which is very well know as "parmesan".

If it is in common useage like spaghetti then use it. If the customers have to ask what it is then you have a problem which the translation didn't solve.

I didn't mean to offend, but.. sometimes...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2007-07-05 08:18:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Yes I did, change my answer, my first one was wrong. Fiocco needs to be *part* of the translation.
But, if the majority of the customers (obviously not the gourmets) have to ask the waiter what it is, and if the waiter doesn't speak English then the translation has achieved no useful purpose.
BTW I'm getting awful hungry with this.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2007-07-05 14:21:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Liliana you said:
‘So according to your assumption, if you had to translate other Italian items in a menu like tiramisu', will you write "italian dessert, made with lady fingers, mascarpone cheese, eggs and coffe"?’ Precisely, Yes!!! but with the word tiramisù included, so I can ask for it again easily, having discovered what it is.
‘Or why not translating "pesto" as "sauce made of crushed basil, grated cheese, olive oil and pine nuts"?’ Yes precisely, but again with the word “pesto” included.

Part of the Sapir Whorf hypothesis is that at times translation becomes so difficult that it can only be achieved by writing copious notes. On another level just last Saturday evening, if the translation of the menu (South American restaurant) had included the words “in a cold soup of strong lemon jiuce”, I wouldn’t have ordered the dish of seafood “frutta di mare cotta” and wasted my money buying something I didn’t like and couldn’t eat. Gourmets and most of your links are definitely that type, don’t really need a translation.



    Reference: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2005160?bs=1#marker_submit
James (Jim) Davis
Seychelles
Local time: 20:37
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 27
Grading comment
Thanks very much - I decided to go for the Italian term plus your English description which seems like a good solution. Thanks again, Nina

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Liliana Roman-Hamilton: Fiocco is a kind of ham like bresaola, culatello, coppa etc. You don't translate them.
8 mins

neutral  Luisa Fiorini: sono d'accordo con Liliana, Fiocco non si traduce
50 mins

agree  Umberto Cassano: prime (or primal) cuts of fiocco Parma ham is fine in my view. You know , I'm one who thinks that translation is a courtesy one should pay to restaurants customers and hotel guests. I agree that only gourmets can understand Fiocco !
6 hrs
  -> Thanks Umberto, although I do feel guilty about having "changed" it

agree  missdutch: agree with Umberto
10 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)




Return to KudoZ list


KudoZ™ translation help
The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.



See also:



Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search