KudoZ home » Italian to English » General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters

cattivo latino

English translation: corrupted/bad Latin

Advertisement

Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs
(or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.
GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Italian term or phrase:cattivo latino
English translation:corrupted/bad Latin
Entered by: Alessandra Renna
Options:
- Contribute to this entry
- Include in personal glossary

21:24 Aug 24, 2008
Italian to English translations [PRO]
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
Italian term or phrase: cattivo latino
what is generally meant by this, please? In my text (no esp. good examples) it could mean deceitful words
Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:27
corrupted latin
Explanation:
a master of "cattivo latino" was Vitruvius.
"Nella storia della prosa d'arte nell'antichit� tracciata da Eduard Norden alla fine del XIX secolo ben poco spazio � riservato a Vitruvio e al suo difficile, stilisticamente poco elegante trattato sull'architettura: poche righe, meno di una pagina, bastano per liquidare una prosa che, pur contenendo alcuni elementi di latino volgare degni d'interesse, risulterebbe per lo pi� pretenziosa e stucchevole, oltre che poco originale, data la forte, spesso pedissequa dipendenza di Vitruvio dalle sue fonti. Le parole di Norden sono significativamente rivelatrici di quel vero e proprio pregiudizio, riguardante l'opera vitruviana in tutti i suoi aspetti, che ha dominato a lungo fra i filologi classici e che era in gran parte determinato da un vero e proprio mito, quello del cattivo latino di Vitruvio: di questo "gergo tecnico", come si legge in uno studio del 1911 sul latino postdassico, "che � stato considerato un esempio di latino volgare, ma che non � n� classico n� volgare: � semplicemente cattivo"
http://www.liberonweb.com/asp/libro.asp?ISBN=8806122398

However, Alberti, a master of Latin prose, noted that Vitruvius' "very text is evidence that he wrote neither Latin or Greek, so that as far as we are concerned, he might just as well not have written at all, rather than write something that we cannot understand."
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/vitruv.htm

"voce/diffusione dell’insincerità, della menzogna, del cattivo latino!". This sentence reminds me of a sort of false friends. A language which has lost its pureness and consequently its very meaning. A sort of bastard, spurious language corrupted by non-classical or barbarous style
Selected response from:

Alessandra Renna
Local time: 10:27
Grading comment
Thank you - I used this, as it seemed to suit my text/film best, but other answers were also good
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Advertisement


Summary of answers provided
3 +6bad Latin
Mirella Soffio
4(my) scarce knowledge/expertise/capacity
BdiL
4corrupted latin
Alessandra Renna
3 +1improper latin
Mirra_
4Dog Latin
Gad Kohenov
3Vulgar LatinKari Foster


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +6
bad Latin


Explanation:
I'd say it simply means "incorrect Latin", but it's hard to say without any context.

Mirella Soffio
Italy
Local time: 10:27
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Monia Di Martino
9 mins

agree  Science451
37 mins

agree  Dana Rinaldi
10 hrs

agree  Pompeo Lattanzi: It simply means "bad (=incorrect) language", just as Mirella says.
11 hrs

agree  Mary Carroll Richer LaFlèche
12 hrs

agree  Sarah Jane Webb
13 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

7 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Vulgar Latin


Explanation:
Not as pejorative as it sounds -- just the speech of ordinary Latin-speakers as opposed to highly educated ones.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 37 mins (2008-08-24 22:02:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Could it simply mean "bad language", in the sense that we would say "pardon my French" in English?

Kari Foster
Local time: 10:27
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks Kari - that's what I was thinking but had found different terms for vulgar Latin and this seems to be meant in a pejorative way in my text, whereas v. Latin isn't meant like that

Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
improper latin


Explanation:
and many of the synonym of 'improper' can also be used...

and no, I knew but I checked it, it is never used to mean 'saying lies'
I always heard it used to mean a latin grammatically incorrect

instead

http://www.google.it/search?num=30&hl=it&safe=off&q="imprope...

Mirra_
Italy
Local time: 10:27
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian
PRO pts in category: 24

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Mary Carroll Richer LaFlèche
11 hrs
  -> grazie molte! :))
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Dog Latin


Explanation:
I believe this is the analogous English expression.

Gad Kohenov
Israel
Local time: 11:27
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench, Native in HebrewHebrew
PRO pts in category: 50
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks DF - also seems fine, though didn't fit my text

Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
corrupted latin


Explanation:
a master of "cattivo latino" was Vitruvius.
"Nella storia della prosa d'arte nell'antichit� tracciata da Eduard Norden alla fine del XIX secolo ben poco spazio � riservato a Vitruvio e al suo difficile, stilisticamente poco elegante trattato sull'architettura: poche righe, meno di una pagina, bastano per liquidare una prosa che, pur contenendo alcuni elementi di latino volgare degni d'interesse, risulterebbe per lo pi� pretenziosa e stucchevole, oltre che poco originale, data la forte, spesso pedissequa dipendenza di Vitruvio dalle sue fonti. Le parole di Norden sono significativamente rivelatrici di quel vero e proprio pregiudizio, riguardante l'opera vitruviana in tutti i suoi aspetti, che ha dominato a lungo fra i filologi classici e che era in gran parte determinato da un vero e proprio mito, quello del cattivo latino di Vitruvio: di questo "gergo tecnico", come si legge in uno studio del 1911 sul latino postdassico, "che � stato considerato un esempio di latino volgare, ma che non � n� classico n� volgare: � semplicemente cattivo"
http://www.liberonweb.com/asp/libro.asp?ISBN=8806122398

However, Alberti, a master of Latin prose, noted that Vitruvius' "very text is evidence that he wrote neither Latin or Greek, so that as far as we are concerned, he might just as well not have written at all, rather than write something that we cannot understand."
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/vitruv.htm

"voce/diffusione dell’insincerità, della menzogna, del cattivo latino!". This sentence reminds me of a sort of false friends. A language which has lost its pureness and consequently its very meaning. A sort of bastard, spurious language corrupted by non-classical or barbarous style


Alessandra Renna
Local time: 10:27
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian
PRO pts in category: 20
Grading comment
Thank you - I used this, as it seemed to suit my text/film best, but other answers were also good
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

16 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
(my) scarce knowledge/expertise/capacity


Explanation:
Il Latino come tale non c'entra direttamente con questa espressione idiomatica e metaforica dell'italiano.
Si intende "una conoscenza approssimativa di una materia" e, in senso traslato, "con scarsa cognizione di causa" o "essendo poco preparato".
Mancando il contesto, applico la traduzione NON letteralmente.
Si trova esempio di tale uso anche in francese, come cita il Merriam Webster (vide infra).

Al massimo è ipotizzabile un significato come spiega De Mauro (vedi sotto), riguardante (e mi pare che la citazione di Dante sia chiarissima) la proprietà di esprimersi, intendendosi per "latino" quella lingua "alta, colta, che presuppone preparazione e NON approssimazione", ma non necessariamente "il" latino (latina lingua).
Valete!

Dal Merriam Webster:
Main Entry: au bout de son la·tin
Pronunciation: \ō-büd-sōⁿ-lä-taⁿ, -bü-də-\
Function: foreign term
Etymology: French
: at the end of one's Latin : at the end of one's mental resources

Da DE Mauro:
6 s.m. OB LE modo di esprimersi, discorso: per chiare parole e con preciso | latin rispuose (Dante)


    Reference: http://www.demauroparavia.it/62381
    Reference: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary
BdiL
Italy
Local time: 10:27
Works in field
Native speaker of: Italian
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)




Return to KudoZ list


Changes made by editors
Aug 25, 2008 - Changes made by Alessandra Renna:
Edited KOG entry<a href="/profile/100794">Rachel Fell's</a> old entry - "cattivo latino" » "corrupted/bad Latin"


KudoZ™ translation help
The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.



See also:



Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search