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ciò che era avvezzo all’obbligo di fedeltà

English translation: that which was customary according to the obligations of fealty

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)

Italian term or phrase:	ciò che era avvezzo all’obbligo di fedeltà
English translation:	that which was customary according to the obligations of fealty
Entered by:	Pauley

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06:38 Sep 13, 2010

Italian to English translations [PRO]
History / medieval hunting dogs

Italian term or phrase: ciò che era avvezzo all’obbligo di fedeltà

Analysis of early medieval Germanic laws for protecting the owners of hunting dogs against the theft and killing of their animals.

"La variante di questa norma chiarisce che i denari da rendere potevano anche salire a 1.800 (45 soldi), quando l’assemblea avesse deciso di comminare una multa per ***ciò che era avvezzo all’obbligo di fedeltà*** (mallobergo trocuuithien uano tue ne chunne): a tale definizione si risale attraverso la composizione e la traduzione di alcuni termini germanici (treudis/trūwēn/trūt+wetti+wana) presenti nella glossa ; mentre l’espressione «tue ne chunne» indicherebbe la composizione dei 1.800 denari, ossia "2×9 centinaia"".

TIA

Pauley KudoZ activity Questions: 1257 (8 open) (3 without valid answers) (54 closed without grading) Answers: 692
Local time: 19:53

(the amount) customarily specified in the oath of fealty

Explanation:
I believe the reference here is that the fine would be determined based on the particular relationship established by oath.

Not entirely sure on this; I am looking over the Malberg Gloss and may have something by tomorrow.

Selected response from:

Jim Tucker
United States

Grading comment

4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

"[he] who was accustomed to the obligations of loyalty"

Sarah Elizabeth Cree

(the amount) customarily specified in the oath of fealty

Jim Tucker

whatever entity bound by an obligation of loyalty

BdiL

Summary of reference entries provided

Barbara Carrara

Discussion entries: 2

Answers

49 mins confidence:

"[he] who was accustomed to the obligations of loyalty"

Explanation:
from Oxford-Paravia:

essere avvezzo a qcs. = to be* accustomed to sth. [sacrifici, agi, cambiamenti]

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Note added at 1 hr (2010-09-13 07:44:48 GMT)
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Hi Pauley!

Since "ciò" and "ciò che" both = "that which" and could refer to both people (persons!) or things, and since "that which" sounds strange to me in the larger context of the translation sentence, I believe its acceptable to write the more natural sounding "he who". It essentially means the same thing as "that which" when "that which" is in reference to a person, not a thing.

See Florio:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio/search/118l.html

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Note added at 1 hr (2010-09-13 08:29:51 GMT)
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My understanding here is that the total fee to be paid could be increased, per a decision to impose a further fine.

According to Devoto Oli,"comminare per" is used in two ways. One, the right way: to specify a penalty. Two, the wrong way: to signify the infliction of a penalty.

Can "ciò che era avvezzo all’obbligo di fedeltà" be seen as a description of the "multa comminata"? I thought it was an indication of the type of person subject to the "multa comminata".

Erp!

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Note added at 2 hrs (2010-09-13 08:42:09 GMT)
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And the amount of the "multa comminata" is specified in the part that follows the word "fedetà".

So, the committee has decided to commina a multa on a particular kind of person for a specific amount. I think this might be the breakdown of the larger context inclusive of the section under discussion! And I think that this particular kind of person is essentially someone already subject to making payments to someone like a feudal lord.

Sarah Elizabeth Cree
Italy
Local time: 19:53
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English

Notes to answerer

Asker: Hi SE. Convincinv. But how do you derive "he" from "ciò che"?

10 hrs confidence:

whatever entity bound by an obligation of loyalty

Explanation:
My interpretation is that the assembly is not deliberating to apply a fine, but that they have regulated (earlier, e.g. by "voting" a law) that somene may bear a stricter obligation and therefore the relevant fine ("in the law") to be applied in case of robbery shall be bigger (heavier).
I interpret "avvezzo" as "accustomed because that is the provision of the law", therefore "bound", "subject", "obligated".
I say "entity" because it might be a single person or more or , let's say, a congregation, a gang of ruffians...
Evidently mine is somehow a shot in the dark, because I don't know what comes before. Neither am I an expert in glossae.
HTH Maurizio

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Note added at 10 hrs (2010-09-13 16:58:53 GMT)
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For a better understanding. Even in today's Italian law a crime committed by an ordinary citizen or by a "pubblico ufficiale" may provide for a heavier penalty for the pubblico ufficiale. And this may be the case for this question: someone bearing a heavier obligation...

BdiL
Local time: 19:53
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

Italian
PRO pts in category: 4

10 hrs confidence:

(the amount) customarily specified in the oath of fealty

Jim Tucker
United States
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 4

Notes to answerer

Asker: Thanks mate.

Reference comments

2 hrs

Reference

Reference information:
The Laws of the Salian Franks, Katherine Fischer Drew

Check Par. VI, pp 70 and 71 here,

http://books.google.com/books?id=K3LE9p9yFzUC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA...

Barbara Carrara
Italy
Native speaker of:

Italian
PRO pts in category: 12

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ciò che era avvezzo all’obbligo di fedeltà

English translation: that which was customary according to the obligations of fealty

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ciò che era avvezzo all’obbligo di fedeltà

English translation: that which was customary according to the obligations of fealty

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