English translation: let\'s leave religion out of this
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Italian to English translations [PRO] Idioms / Maxims / Sayings
Italian term or phrase:scherzare coi fanti
In a translation about pumpkins (!) and in the context of the "zucchetto dei cardinali", I've come across the maxim: "scherzare coi fanti e lasciar stare i Santi". I can see what it's getting at (more or less), but can't think how best to render the idea in English. Any ideas? Thanks, Sarah.
"The link needs to be discreetly explained in English"
Yes indeed Giles, hope that's what I've managed to do :-). I'm sort of going off squash after all this!
I don't think that pesky "anche" has to refer to anything specific in the preceding discourse. All it does is to signal another meaning of "zucca" in colloquial Italian, which is then illustrated by the "zuccotto" example.
The link needs to be discreetly explained in English, where "pumpkin" doesn't have the "skull" meaning ("nut" is quite a close equivalent, though).
Compare the ING Direct websites in the UK and Italy (ingdirect.co.uk and ingdirect.it). The orange-themed colour scheme is the pretty much same but the UK site lacks the cucurbitaceous element ;-)
Giles, you're obviously quite right, but in this particular case the line is a complete throwaway introducing an otherwise straightforward text on culinary aspects of the "zucca". The "anche" I suppose is linked to the "ma la zucca è soprattutto..." che segue.... boh!!! Anyway thanks to you all for your customary great help and on with the next one.
Complimenti! Evidentemente lo studio dell'enologia italica porta ottimi risultati anche in altri campi. Se zuccotto/zucca fossero comparsi prima (con il contesto originale, e, comunque, a che cosa si riferisce quell'"anche"? cioè che c'è prima dello zuccotto?) le preziose spiegazioni dei colleghi avrebbero subito una sfrondatura (semplificazione) e ci saremmo concentrati sulla ricerca di un gioco di parole simile in inglese. Temo che sia assai difficile e in specie io non ne trovo soluzione. Poi (è sottinteso) il detto è assolutamente appropriato al contesto. Infine, ma manca il collegamento allo "skullcap", mi piace molto il "jeux de mots" di D. Zambrini. Per dare una versione accettabile in inglese non basterà mai il grido di dolore: "contesto ampio!!". Maurizio
The piece seems to be a round-up of ideas associated with "zucca". This is fair enough but "zucca" in the sense of "skull", which is not obvious in English, is not made explicit in the text you have given us, although "anche" hints at it (to answer Phil's question).
The gist is: "Zucca can also mean 'skull', as in a cardinal's skullcap (zuccotto), but let's not bring religion into this. First and foremost, the pumpkin is a major feature of traditional Italian cookery".
It could be just free association - the writer is talking about zucche, or zucchini, and says "that sounds a bit like zucchetto. but let's leave religion out of this". Again, it would help to know what comes before this.
I think there's some kind of play on words here - a zucchetto is a skullcap worn by Catholic priests, and a zucca is a marrow. It would help to know what comes before this (ie why does it begin "C'è anche"?). I have a feeling the pun is untranslatable, and you'll probably have to leave it out. Either way, none of the answers so far explains what the phrase means in this particular context.
Firstly thanks to you all for the answers so far. Phil, it's a throwaway phrase completely out of context with the rest of the text which talks about the "zucca" as a vegetable: "C’è anche lo zucchetto dei cardinali (scherzare coi fanti e lasciar stare i Santi), ma la zucca è soprattutto una parte importante della cucina popolare." Don't know if that helps much!
Could you give us the full Italian context please? What comes before and after this?
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Answers
14 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
don't mix the sacred with the profane
Explanation: The meaning is: "Don't mix the sacred with the profane" (see reference below), or "Joke with people but don't mess with the Saints".
Another quotation: "Scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi" is a proverb that means, more or less, that you may joke with unimportant people ( fanti, that means simple soldiers) but not with your superiors (santi = saints, intending important people). I think that "fanti" and "santi" are choosen because of the rhyme, not for else.
Here you can find a definition and some more examples, in case you need other religion-related proverbs: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:j6hQAakQoc8J:www.h...
Sara Maghini Italy Local time: 19:57 Works in field Native speaker of: Italian PRO pts in category: 4
16 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi
Don't mix the sacred with the profane
Explanation: Pervasi dal senso dell’onnipotenza non si rendono conto di quanto poco interessano alla gente queste esternazioni personali, anzi infastidiscono memori del detto “scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi”.
Pervaded by a feeling of omnipotence, they fail to realise how little people are interested in their personal attitudes and statements, which are, as a matter of fact, rather annoying, since the saying "Don't mix the sacred with the profane" still lingers in people's minds.
Explanation: It's a quote from Puccini's opera Tosca, where at the very beginning of the opera the Sacristan says to the painter Cavaradossi: "Scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi" translated variously as "Jest with knaves and leave the saints alone".
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 19 mins (2010-08-26 17:40:09 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Sorry I didn't complete the phrase. I wanted to say that there are a number of translations, but they all carry the same meaning.
Cavaradossi (al Sagrestano)
Dammi i colori!
(Il Sagrestano eseguisce. Cavaradossi dipinge con rapidità e si sofferma spesso a riguardare il proprio lavoro: il Sagrestano va e viene, portando una catinella entro la quale continua a lavare i pennelli.)
(A un tratto Cavaradossi si ristà di dipingere; leva di tasca un medaglione contenente una miniatura e gli occhi suoi vanno dal medaglione al quadro).
Recondita armonia
di bellezze diverse!...
È bruna Floria,
l'ardente amante mia...
Sagrestano
(a mezza voce, come brontolando)
Scherza coi fanti e lascia stare i santi!
(s'allontana per prendere l'acqua onde pulire i pennelli)
English translation (one of many)
CAVARADOSSI
Give me my paints.
The Sacristan does so. Cavaradossi paints rapidly, with frequent pauses to observe his work. The Sacristan comes and goes; he carries a small basin in which he continues his job of washing the brushes.
Suddenly Cavaradossi leaves his painting: from his pocket he takes a medallion with a portrait in miniature, and his eyes travel from the miniature to his own work.
Oh hidden harmony
Of contrasting beauties! Floria
Is dark, my love and passion…
SACRISTAN
to himself
Jest with knaves and neglect the saints …
Fiorsam Local time: 13:57 Works in field Native speaker of: Italian PRO pts in category: 4
The translation workplace 
peer agreement (net): +1
