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"se"

English translation: see explanation

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09:00 May 19, 2005
Latin to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Linguistics
Latin term or phrase: "se"
Here's my sentence:

Cleopatra timebat enim ne Octavianus vellet se captivam per vias Romae ducere, cum triumphum ageret; quod dedecus ferre non poterat.

It feels like this "se" refers to Cleopatra, but I have been insistently told that it is referring to Octavianus.
What's your opinion about it?

Thank you very much in advance for your answer..
Gamze Ozfirat
Local time: 10:46
English translation:see explanation
Explanation:
Dear Gamze,

"timebat" here is a verb of "fear". Thus, "ne" here works as "that", with an affirmative clause instead of a negative, which would be normal for "ne".

"Cleopatra, indeed, was afraid that Octavianus would lead her captive through the streets of Rome".

"Se" here is clear Cleopatra, 3rd singular pronoun. It could never be Octavianus because context clearly tell us that:

-"se" is the object of "ducere": to lead HER
-"se" goes with "captivam" which is accusative as well, and an adjective that defines "se" - it is clearly feminine :) (captivAM instead of captivUM)

"she was afraid that he would want to lead HER captive (in chains) through the streets of Rome"

I hope this helps you :)

Best wishes
Flavio



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 28 mins (2005-05-19 09:28:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Yes, it could be \"eam\" as well, but in this case Octavian should be \"eum\" too... I like the reflexive \"flavour\" of \"se\" here for Cleopatra, and I think its proximity to captivam is vital here.
Selected response from:

flaviofbg
Spain
Local time: 09:46
Grading comment
Mille grazie, caro Flavio!.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +8see explanation
flaviofbg
4 +7Se refers to Cléopâtra
irat56
5 -2to Octavianus
Giusi Pasi


Discussion entries: 3





  

Answers


4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +7
Se
Se refers to Cléopâtra


Explanation:
She feared that he should take her to his triumph in Rome.

irat56
France
Local time: 09:46
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 3

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  kaydee
2 mins
  -> Thanks!

agree  Valeska Maier-Wörz: exactly
2 mins
  -> Merci!

agree  Giusi Pasi: changed comment. you're right. now i can see it more clearly. sorry for confusion..
8 mins
  -> Don't think so! "Cleopatra" is "subject" of "Timebat", so the reflexive pronoun is better than "eam"

agree  Joseph Brazauskas
55 mins
  -> Thank you!

agree  Maria Ferstl: Definitely! Eam would be wrong!
59 mins
  -> Merci!

agree  Vicky Papaprodromou
1 hr
  -> Merci Vicky!

agree  xxx------
1 hr
  -> Merci!
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19 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +8
se
see explanation


Explanation:
Dear Gamze,

"timebat" here is a verb of "fear". Thus, "ne" here works as "that", with an affirmative clause instead of a negative, which would be normal for "ne".

"Cleopatra, indeed, was afraid that Octavianus would lead her captive through the streets of Rome".

"Se" here is clear Cleopatra, 3rd singular pronoun. It could never be Octavianus because context clearly tell us that:

-"se" is the object of "ducere": to lead HER
-"se" goes with "captivam" which is accusative as well, and an adjective that defines "se" - it is clearly feminine :) (captivAM instead of captivUM)

"she was afraid that he would want to lead HER captive (in chains) through the streets of Rome"

I hope this helps you :)

Best wishes
Flavio



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 28 mins (2005-05-19 09:28:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Yes, it could be \"eam\" as well, but in this case Octavian should be \"eum\" too... I like the reflexive \"flavour\" of \"se\" here for Cleopatra, and I think its proximity to captivam is vital here.


flaviofbg
Spain
Local time: 09:46
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian, Native in SpanishSpanish
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
Mille grazie, caro Flavio!.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Maria Ferstl
49 mins

agree  Joseph Brazauskas: Euge!
50 mins
  -> Gratias tibi, Josephus!

agree  irat56: Excellent explanation!
50 mins
  -> Thank you :)

agree  Vicky Papaprodromou
51 mins

agree  Giusi Pasi: yes, i can see it more clearly. you're right :)
1 hr
  -> No problem dear Giusi :)

agree  xxx------
1 hr

agree  kaydee
2 hrs

agree  xxxAlfa Trans
6 hrs
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8 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): -2
to Octavianus


Explanation:
because 'se' is the subject of the proposition (ducere) referred to O. (...that he (se) lead her..)




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 28 mins (2005-05-19 10:29:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

My colleagues are right. As a matter of fact, \'se\' is together \'captivam, then Flavio\'s explanation is brilliant.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 28 mins (2005-05-19 10:29:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

together with, of course

Giusi Pasi
Italy
Local time: 09:46
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  flaviofbg: Why shouldn't it be "eum", then, dear Giusi? I see an emphatic use of the reflexive here. Also, I think it is important to notice how "se" and "captivam" are together here. I would find it strange to read "captivam" as an isolated item, don't you think?
18 mins
  -> I see only the objective proposition for O.

disagree  Maria Ferstl: Cl. is the subject of the sentence, so "her" couldn't be expressed with "eam" in this case. And O. is a male...
59 mins

disagree  Joseph Brazauskas: 'Se' is here the indirect reflexive, as indicated by the feminine form of the modifying adjective ('captivam'), 'Cleopatra' being the subject nominative of 'timebat' and 'Octavianus' of 'vellet'.
59 mins
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Voters for reclassification
as
PRO / non-PRO
PRO (2): Giusi Pasi, flaviofbg


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Changes made by editors
May 19, 2005 - Changes made by flaviofbg:
LevelNon-PRO » PRO


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