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difficult sentence

English translation: establishing its efficacy

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16:48 Feb 20, 2006
Portuguese to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law: Contract(s)
Portuguese term or phrase: difficult sentence
Pontes de Miranda já admitia que "a causa é a função que o sistema jurídico reconhece a determinado tipo de ato jurídico, função que o situa no mundo jurídico , traçando-lhe e precisando-lhe a eficácia".

It's the final clause, beginning "traçando-lhe" that puzzles me. I'm assuming "eficacia" is the object of the clause but I'm not sure. The preceding sentence in the text may offer useful context:

O exame da causa em concreto do negócio jurídico, na hipótese em estudo, assume importância porque ela é condição para a validade e a eficácia das cláusulas contratuais controvertidas.

Any wiser and less muddled heads than mine?
lexical
Spain
Local time: 19:00
English translation:establishing its efficacy
Explanation:
A linguagem do direito tem dessas redundâncias. Eu iria pelo mais simples.

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Note added at 55 mins (2006-02-20 17:44:05 GMT)
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Você pode estar certo de três coisas:
- o sujeito de "traçando" e "precisando" só pode ser "função", por um princípio da co-referencialidade (cláusulas com gerúndio e sem sujeito explícito tomam o sujeito da oração a que são subordinadas);
- eficácia é certamente o objeto direto;
- lhe funciona como um possessivo (= "traçando sua eficácia").
Boa sorte!


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Note added at 1 hr (2006-02-20 17:56:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Agora ficou claro, a causa é a função que situa o ato jurídico no mundo jurídico e determina a eficácia desse ato. Espero que isso ajude.
Selected response from:

Vidomar
Local time: 14:00
Grading comment
Thank you for your very full answer Vidomar. The syntactical analysis was especially helpful, particularly at the end of a day of dealing with this author's verbal gymnastics.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 -1underlining and demanding efficacy from it
telefpro
4delineating and defining its efficacy
Edgar Potter
4please read
Lincoln Silveira
4tracing and specifying its efficacyChiquipaisa
3establishing its efficacyVidomar


  

Answers


47 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
traçando-lhe e precisando-lhe a eficácia
establishing its efficacy


Explanation:
A linguagem do direito tem dessas redundâncias. Eu iria pelo mais simples.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 55 mins (2006-02-20 17:44:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Você pode estar certo de três coisas:
- o sujeito de "traçando" e "precisando" só pode ser "função", por um princípio da co-referencialidade (cláusulas com gerúndio e sem sujeito explícito tomam o sujeito da oração a que são subordinadas);
- eficácia é certamente o objeto direto;
- lhe funciona como um possessivo (= "traçando sua eficácia").
Boa sorte!


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-02-20 17:56:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Agora ficou claro, a causa é a função que situa o ato jurídico no mundo jurídico e determina a eficácia desse ato. Espero que isso ajude.

Vidomar
Local time: 14:00
Native speaker of: Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Thank you for your very full answer Vidomar. The syntactical analysis was especially helpful, particularly at the end of a day of dealing with this author's verbal gymnastics.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
tracing and specifying its efficacy


Explanation:
or tracing and establishing its efficacy/effectiveness

Chiquipaisa
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in SpanishSpanish
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
please read


Explanation:
I'm afraid that "eficácia" isn't functioning as object here; it is more an attribute of "ato jurídico", which is, in fact, the object. The pronouns "lhe".

As far as I, a lawyer briefly acquainted with the works of Brazilian law scholar Pontes de Miranda, am concerned, I'd say that the overall meaning of this genuine specimen of the finest legalese is that the cause of the "ato jurídico" is the actual function that outlines it and establishes its effectivenes in the legal system.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2006-02-20 19:59:50 GMT)
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I meant: the pronouns "lhe" clearly allow us to discern the object in this case.

Lincoln Silveira
Brazil
Local time: 14:00
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Portuguese
PRO pts in category: 52

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Vidomar: I will not offer a disagree, for you didn't really propose an answer. I hold a master's degree in linguistics and work as a Portuguese teacher. So I can assure you that the syntactic analysis I provided is correct.
1 hr
  -> I see it... well, thanks for pointing that out.
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
delineating and defining its efficacy


Explanation:
Vidomar's analysis is correct...this is my choice of synonyms for phrasing it

Edgar Potter
United States
Local time: 12:00
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 139
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16 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): -1
underlining and demanding efficacy from it


Explanation:
Explicacao da frase aparentemente complicada.
A frase simplesmente significa o seguinte :
enfatiza-se e exige-se eficácia de parte do sistema juridico cuja trducap aparece encima em ingles.

telefpro
Local time: 22:30
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in PortuguesePortuguese, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 32

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Vidomar: Perdão, telefpro, mas não há nada aqui que sugira exigência. Precisar, no contexto, significa tornar preciso, não exigir. Mesmo porque, nesse caso, não caberia a regência "precisando-lhe".
5 hrs
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