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insolventa vs involvabilitate

English translation: technical insolvency (on paper) vs. adjudicatable, de facto insolvency

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Romanian term or phrase:insolventa vs involvabilitate
English translation:technical insolvency (on paper) vs. adjudicatable, de facto insolvency
Entered by: Octavia Efraim
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10:03 Dec 7, 2010
Romanian to English translations [PRO]
Bus/Financial - Law: Taxation & Customs
Romanian term or phrase: insolventa vs involvabilitate
Ambii termeni au mai fost discutati pe forum, "insolvency" fiind dat de fiecare data ca echivalent pentru ambii. Totusi se pare ca romanii fac diferenta intre cele doua notiuni; daca am inteles eu corect niste explicatii venite dinspre ANAF, diferenta s-ar situa la nivelul instantei care declara starea cu pricina: insolvabilitatea ar fi, pare-se, declarata de administratia fiscala, pe cand insolventa - de o instanta judecatoreasca. Spaniolii, de exemplu, care inteleg ca nu prea disting conceptele astea sau cel putin nu au termeni diferiti pentru a le desemna, au gasit solutia "insolvencia mercantil" (pentru "insolventa" noastra) vs "insolvencia administrativa" (pentru "insolvabilitate").
Care e situatia in engleza?
Octavia Efraim
Local time: 10:23
technical insolvency (on paper) vs. adjudicatable, de facto insolvency
Explanation:
As far as I understand the Note to Answerer above - the technical answer had already occurred to me - this distinction also exists in (Arg.) ES: insolvability - the debtor would like to pay but can't. Insolvency or cessation of payments/voluntary receivership - there is no enquiry into the surrounding circumstances of the default of payment, whilst the authors of the website prefer actual (de hecho = de facto) insolvency, whether brought on by the debtor's capricious conduct or otherwise.

Adjudication is the legal term for the declaration of (UK: personal) bankruptcy or (individual or corporate) insolvency.

The second term may have been mis-spelt.



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Note added at 6 hrs (2010-12-07 16:33:31 GMT)
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Colloquial verb: declare/legalistic: adjudge OR adjudicate

Coll. noun: declaration/legal: adjudication of both bankruptcy and insolvency
Selected response from:

Tom Thumb
Local time: 09:23
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +2Balance sheet insolvency vs Cash flow insolvency
Claudia Coja
3technical insolvency (on paper) vs. adjudicatable, de facto insolvency
Tom Thumb


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


9 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Balance sheet insolvency vs Cash flow insolvency


Explanation:
"...atât economistii, cât si juristii, îndeosebi cei legati de activitatea de lichidare, au simtit nevoia unor diferentieri. Când spun insolventa, ei inteleg o stare de lunga durata, dominata de imposibilitatea îndeplinirii unor obligatii: plata datoriilor sau onorarea unor contracte. Pe când insolvabilitatea este socotita o stare vremelnica, un dezechilibru de scurta durata, care-l pune pe debitor în situatia de a întârzia onorarea datoriilor."
http://www.sfin.ro/articol_4119/legea_insolventei_propune_pl...
"Business insolvency is defined in two different ways:
Cash flow insolvency
Unable to pay debts as they fall due.
Balance sheet insolvency
Having negative net assets - in other words, liabilities exceed assets. "
http://www.californiabankruptcylawyersblog.com/2010/06/insol...

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Note added at 13 mins (2010-12-07 10:17:38 GMT)
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Cash flow insolvency can lead to balance sheet insolvency; if a company has to cease trading because it cannot pay its bills as they fall due the value at which it is carrying its assets may need to be written down to their forced sale value instead of being shown at their going concern value.
http://www.netlawman.co.uk/company-partnership/insolvency-pr...

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Note added at 2 hrs (2010-12-07 12:10:43 GMT)
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Cu mare placere, ma bucur daca referintele postate de mine te-au ajutat, mi-as fi dorit sa stiu mai multe despre acest subiect, dar -asa cum am mai spus - nu sunt de formatie finantist, ci lingvist.

Claudia Coja
Local time: 09:23
Native speaker of: Native in RomanianRomanian
Notes to answerer
Asker: Multumesc, Claudia. M-ai repus pe o pista pe care o gasisem mai demult (articolul din Saptamana financiara), dar care nu ma convisese atunci. Si inca nu sunt pe deplin lamurita. Reluand acum Codul de procedura fiscala in lumina explicatiilor din articol, am scos toate ocurentele celor doi termeni si am ajuns la concluzia ca, intr-adevar, insolvabilitatea e considerata ca fiind o stare temporara (ANAF-ul pune datoriile insolvabilului pe stand-by, il tine sub control si ii "investigheaza" starea o data pe an - art. 176 C.pr.fisc. si art. 171.1 Norme metodologice), care nu impune interventia instantei de judecata, problema ramanand la nivel de organ de executare fiscala. In privinta insolventei, exista Legea 85/2006, care defineste termenul astfel: "insolventa este acea stare a patrimoniului debitorului care se caracterizeaza prin insuficienta fondurilor banesti disponibile pentru plata datoriilor exigibile" (art. 1). Sincer, nu prea vad diferenta fata de definitia insolvabilitatii din C.pr.fisc.: "În sensul prezentului cod, este insolvabil debitorul ale cărui venituri sau bunuri urmăribile au o valoare mai mică decât obligaţiile fiscale de plată sau care nu are venituri ori bunuri urmaribile." (art. 176). Si, colac peste pupaza, ca sa mai ingroase putin ceata terminologica, tot legea asta zice: "In toate actele normative in care figureaza termenul insolvabilitate in contextul procedurilor de reorganizare si de faliment, cu sau fara referire la Legea nr.64/1995 privind procedura reorganizarii judiciare si a falimentului, se inlocuieste cu aceea [sic] de insolventa." Desi, daca ma gandesc mai bine, se poate ca, dimpotriva, precizarea asta sa fie chiar salvatoare, fiindca scoate insolvabilitatea din sfera judiciara (limitand-o, prin urmare, la sfera administrativa). In privinta englezei, am gasit si eu solutia "technical insolvency" (vs bankrupcy - ramane de vazut daca insolventa si falimentul sunt totuna - sau vs "(actual) insolvency"). http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Technical+Insolvency http://moneyterms.co.uk/technical-insolvency/


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Klára Kalamár
14 mins
  -> mulţumesc: )

agree  Alexandranow
25 mins
  -> mulţumesc: )
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
insolventa vs insolvabilitate
technical insolvency (on paper) vs. adjudicatable, de facto insolvency


Explanation:
As far as I understand the Note to Answerer above - the technical answer had already occurred to me - this distinction also exists in (Arg.) ES: insolvability - the debtor would like to pay but can't. Insolvency or cessation of payments/voluntary receivership - there is no enquiry into the surrounding circumstances of the default of payment, whilst the authors of the website prefer actual (de hecho = de facto) insolvency, whether brought on by the debtor's capricious conduct or otherwise.

Adjudication is the legal term for the declaration of (UK: personal) bankruptcy or (individual or corporate) insolvency.

The second term may have been mis-spelt.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2010-12-07 16:33:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Colloquial verb: declare/legalistic: adjudge OR adjudicate

Coll. noun: declaration/legal: adjudication of both bankruptcy and insolvency

Example sentence(s):
  • Provincial se introduce en una distinción entre insolvencia e insolvabilidad reservando para éste último vocablo la designación de aquel que es insolvente
  • period of three months prior to the adjudication of insolvency

    Reference: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/romanian_to_english/law_general/26...
    Reference: http://tododeiure.atspace.com/diccionarios/juridico_i02.htm
Tom Thumb
Local time: 09:23
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
Notes to answerer
Asker: Many thanks for your valuable input, Tom Thumb. I think it´s really interesting to find in Argentina the same distinction as in Romania; as far as I know, Spaniards make no such distinction, though, or they may use a different terminology that I´m not aware of. I know that they use, when talking about Romania, "insolvencia mercantil" for insolventa and "insolvencia administrativa" for insolvabilitate. Also, the sources I've consulted till now make me think that what is really "adjuged" (by the relevant authorities) is "bankrupcy", whilst you "declare" your own insolvency (as a first step of the procedure). So bankrupcy appears to me as the final stage of the proceeding initiated by filing - among other things - a "declaration of insolvency" (see, for instance: http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/freedomofinformation/technical/generalbankruptcyqueries.htm). Also important: "An individual can only be declared bankrupt by a court at the request of themselves or an unpaid creditor." (http://moneyterms.co.uk/technical-insolvency/) Another point I would like to make: din C.pr.fisc. rezulta ca insolvabilul isi continua activitatea si e controlat periodic de ANAF, pe cand insolventul intra in lichidare, iar ANAF inainteaza instantelor judecatoresti cererea de incepere a procedurii insolventei (art. 176-177).

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