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объединение, соединение

English translation: соединение = formation ; объединение = group

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11:48 Apr 6, 2004
Russian to English translations [PRO]
Military / Defense
Russian term or phrase: объединение, соединение
Federal Rules again.
A set phrase which keeps recurring throughout the Rules and their supplements:

командующий объединением ВВС и ПВО (командующий авиационным объединением, командир авиационного соединения)

I have been translating this in a way I now think is wrong, and want to correct it. It appears necessary to distinguish between командующий and командир, which I think I can do by using "commanding officer" and "commander", and also between "объединение" and "соединение". "Часть" is also used occasionally too. It would be a lot easier if they used words like regiment, company, etc., or group, wing, squadron (in RAF terms). What would you suggest to distinguish between these two words?
Jack Doughty
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:28
English translation:соединение = formation ; объединение = group
Explanation:
IMHO

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Note added at 9 mins (2004-04-06 11:57:52 GMT)
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командир - когда речь идет об ОДНОЙ ЧАСТИ
командующий = когда речь идет о некотором ОБЪЕДИНЕНИИ :) частей - но не о \"соединении\" поскольку \"соединением\" в данном случае называется авиационная часть (одна) но такая которая может иметь различный состав

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Note added at 13 mins (2004-04-06 12:01:27 GMT)
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командующий объединением ВВС и ПВО (командующий авиационным объединением, командир авиационного соединения)
===
comment -

there are two military units - an air defence unit and an air forces unit - they have separate commanders but at the time they form a military group and the commander of the air forces unit is also the commander of the group


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Note added at 30 mins (2004-04-06 12:18:37 GMT)
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we may also say \"military formation\" and \"military group\"
Selected response from:

Alexander Onishko
Local time: 07:28
Grading comment
"How happy could I be with either, were t'other dear charmer away!" (John Gay, "The Beggar's Opera")

You and GaryG have both been very helpful and if I could divide the points between you, I would. Thanks very much to both of you.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +2formation, large formation
GaryG
4 +2соединение = formation ; объединение = group
Alexander Onishko


Discussion entries: 6





  

Answers


11 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
formation, large formation


Explanation:
This is the way it's generally been done in the US Govt, especially the Defense Dept and intelligence agencies.
соединение is a division or independent regiment
объединение is an arm or independent corps

You didn't ask specifically, but командующий was usually translated as "Commanding General" since it's nearly always a general officer, unless it was an адмирал

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Note added at 2004-04-06 12:01:43 (GMT)
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Часть is a regiment or independent battalion, BTW.

The Soviet press used there circumlocutions to conceal the precise nature of military units they were referring to. Only in the late Gorbachev era did you actually see the words \"армия\" or \"корпус\" used to describe contemporary units with any frequency

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Note added at 2004-04-06 12:04:59 (GMT)
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For purposes of comparison a соединение would be commanded by a Gen-Maj or senior (promotable) Col., an обЪединение by a Gen-Lt or senior Gen-Maj, etc.

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Note added at 2004-04-06 12:14:01 (GMT)
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From the Military Encyclopedic Dictionary definition for объединение:

воинское формирование, включающее нескл. соед. или объед. меньшего состава, а также
частей и учреждений....

GaryG
Local time: 00:28
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 289

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Vladimir Chumak: Соединение (войсковое) - a general term for military formations: brigade, division, corps, squadron (in the Navy)
6 mins
  -> but there are limits: only an INDEPENDENT bde or a corps that's not independent (see the Mil Encyclopediic Dictionary or the full Encyclopedia itself)

agree  Sergey Strakhov
18 mins
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6 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
объединение, сое
соединение = formation ; объединение = group


Explanation:
IMHO

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 mins (2004-04-06 11:57:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

командир - когда речь идет об ОДНОЙ ЧАСТИ
командующий = когда речь идет о некотором ОБЪЕДИНЕНИИ :) частей - но не о \"соединении\" поскольку \"соединением\" в данном случае называется авиационная часть (одна) но такая которая может иметь различный состав

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 mins (2004-04-06 12:01:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

командующий объединением ВВС и ПВО (командующий авиационным объединением, командир авиационного соединения)
===
comment -

there are two military units - an air defence unit and an air forces unit - they have separate commanders but at the time they form a military group and the commander of the air forces unit is also the commander of the group


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 30 mins (2004-04-06 12:18:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

we may also say \"military formation\" and \"military group\"

Alexander Onishko
Local time: 07:28
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian, Native in UkrainianUkrainian
PRO pts in category: 46
Grading comment
"How happy could I be with either, were t'other dear charmer away!" (John Gay, "The Beggar's Opera")

You and GaryG have both been very helpful and if I could divide the points between you, I would. Thanks very much to both of you.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  George Vardanyan
0 min
  -> Спасибо, Джордж !

agree  Vladimir Chumak
12 mins
  -> Cпасибо, Владимир !
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