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razón arquitectónica


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08:25 Nov 28, 2011
Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Architecture
Spanish term or phrase: razón arquitectónica
Hello. This is from a text on the restoration of an old church, northern Spain.

"4 Restauración de la Capilla Mayor como único espacio del conjunto que atestigua con certeza su razón arquitectónica “mudéjar”, mediante la recuperación formal de las bóvedas de crucería, huecos de iluminación originales y paramentos latericios"

Thanks for your help
Simon
Simon Bruni
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:52


Summary of answers provided
4 +1architecture styleHelena Chavarria
4the only part that could be truly considered/ properly classified as Mudéjar
Jenni Lukac
4architectural conception / systemCharles Davis
4mudéjar origin
YP - idiomatica
3it is considerd
manuel seixo
3that clearly reflects mudejar influenceRobert Forstag
2original (architectural) purpose
Nikki Graham


  

Answers


33 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
mudéjar origin


Explanation:
This is the only structure still showing those origins, as I understand it. It doesn't mean that it keeps the original style, but that it revels it.

YP - idiomatica
Local time: 03:52
Native speaker of: Native in SpanishSpanish
PRO pts in category: 4
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
architectural conception / system


Explanation:
Another view. I don't think "razón" means style, and I don't think it's mere padding. I think Yaiza's "origin" is closer.

I take "razón" here to mean the architectural idea underlying the construction, and I think the word that gets closest to capturing this idea is "conception". In other words, this building was conceived and planned with an architectural system in mind, and that system was mudéjar.

I am deducing this from how I find "razón" used in this sort of context, in expressions such as "razón constructiva" (in relation to Gaudí, for example). In other words, I read it as meaning something like the rationale, the conceptual system, underlying the architecture.

Modern architectural theorists refer to an "architectural system" to refer to something like this, and I think that is also a possibility here:

"The search for a modern architecture was guided by the universal conviction that architecture was grounded in the art of building. Reformers soon had a powerful conceptual tool to assist them through the introduction of a new concept, the 'architectural system'. The phrase 'architectural system' generally designated the integral co-ordination of structure, form and decoration [...]
It was Quatremère de Quincy, an influential figure in the art world, who in the 1820s and 1830s brought the phrase into the mainstream of architectural thought [...] Although Quatremère de Quincy conceded that there were numerous architectural systems, none, he believed, was as satisfactorily developed as that of Greek architecture."
Frank Lloyd Wright and Le Corbusier: the romantic legacy
http://books.google.es/books?id=eEG8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&...

Charles Davis
Local time: 03:52
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 52
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28 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
que atestigua con certeza su razón arquitectónica mudejar
that clearly reflects mudejar influence


Explanation:
Since the context makes clear that the reference is to architecture/architectural style, this need not be explicitly mentioned in the English.

In my view, "architectural style" would be awkward here.

Suerte.

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Note added at 1 hr (2011-11-28 09:41:24 GMT)
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It seems significant that, in the posted extract, "mudejar" is in quotation marks. This seems to suggest that the architecture in question "isn't exactly mudejar." If such is the case, it would not make sense to refer to a "conception" or "system."

Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 21:52
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 63

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  YP - idiomatica: Pero "influence" es un poco ligero. "Razón" implica más que una influencia: un cánon, una norma. EDIT: En este caso no se podría hablar de copia de ninguna manera, porque el edificio es originalmente mudéjar, según entiendo yo la frase.
6 mins
  -> Pero tampoco parece que el texto quiera decir que la arquitectura en cuestión sea *una copia exacta* del estilo mudéjar. Y, al fin y al cabo, “mudejar influence" suena un tanto más natural en el contexto de cosas inanimadas que “mudejar origin.”
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20 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
architecture style


Explanation:
Mudejar (architecture) style.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2011-11-28 12:13:55 GMT)
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I haven't translated "razón" as I think that can be included in the rest of the phrase. "Razón" is reason, purpose, idea behind, etc.


    Reference: http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudéjar
    Reference: http://www.coloursofspain.com/travelguidedetail/5/aragon/wor...
Helena Chavarria
Local time: 03:52
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in SpanishSpanish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  YP - idiomatica: Decir que ese espacio es el único que atestigua el estilo arquitectónico del conjunto es un poco contradictorio, no?
16 mins
  -> Asker only wanted help with the two words: "razón" and "arquitectónica". I posted the references so he could see for himself what the Mudéjar style is, allowing him to decide for himself how he wanted to word the phrase.

agree  Benjamin A Flores: I like "muslim architecture style" as one can read in http://famouswonders.com/great-mosque-of-cordoba/
3 hrs
  -> I'm pleased you agree. Thank you!
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
original (architectural) purpose


Explanation:
truly reflects its original (architectural) purpose in a Mudéjar style

I may of course be totally wrong, but again I feel that the author is trying to say that after the restoration it will still be obvious to all that this was/is the chancel. If we take Mudéjar out of the sentence, it makes more sense to me, and I'm wondering if it is in italics because it's almost an aside, additional info, rather than the main focus.

Anyway, this is obviously just an idea to throw out at you, because hopefully the rest of the text will make what he wants to say (should be saying?) clearer

by the way, according to research I have done in the past, Mudéjar should be written with a capital in English and it retains the accent.

Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:52
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 533
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10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
the only part that could be truly considered/ properly classified as Mudéjar


Explanation:
Another approach: The only part... that that could be truly considered/ properly or strictly classified as (being) Mudéjar... Mudéjar with or without the accent as determined by your style guidelines for this translation.

Suggestions are adapted from the translation of an interpretation of razón as meaning "que acredite una clasificación como mudéjar" (which seems to fit the context).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_architecture
Mudéjar Style‎: Mudéjar did not involve the creation of new structures (unlike Gothic ... although classified as Mudéjar, are more closely related to the ...; www.scribd.com/.../Elementos-Arquitectonicos-y-Decorativos-...
5 Sep 2011 – ... islamic tradition and the other one can be classified as Renaissance.; contemporaneity.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/.../5/7 -
Formato de archivo: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Vista rápida
de IN Sheren - 2011
The question remains, though, as to what extent Mudéjar can be considered Islamic architecture.; Doris Duke Foundation for Islamic Art - Non-Profit ...
www.facebook.com/.../202214289815530 -
Yes, this piece would be considered mudejar. For those not in the know, mudejar is an art historical term that refers to a unique Iberian form of artistic expression, ; www.oldeenglishtiles.com.au/.../andalus-collectio...
They are strongly indebted to the Mudejar from a technical point of view, though they can also be considered Renaissaance from an ornamental standpoint, ...

Jenni Lukac
Local time: 03:52
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 68

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Nikki Graham: I'm basing the spelling of Mudéjar on the Oxford dictionary of architecture, not style guidelines or Google hits
15 hrs
  -> My practice (and everyone is entitled to his or her own): If the client requires that a word carry an accent, the accent stays; otherwise the publisher's rules (or M-W or Oxford depending on the audience) informs this decision.
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22 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
it is considerd


Explanation:
First the Spanish phrase:
...atestigua con certeza su razón arquitectónica “mudéjar”, Translates in Spanish as ...atestigua con certeza su razón arquitectónica de ser considerada “mudéjar” en arqutectónia,... and therefore my translation in English that calls for a different approach.

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Note added at 22 hrs (2011-11-29 07:01:59 GMT)
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arqutectónia_ typo and repeat word not needed!

manuel seixo
Australia
Local time: 11:22
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 22
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