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Lugar, fecha y orden de nacimiento

English translation: place, date and order of birth

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Spanish term or phrase:Lugar, fecha y orden de nacimiento
English translation:place, date and order of birth
Entered by: Charles Davis

15:42 Jul 31, 2012
Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Certificates, Diplomas, Licenses, CVs
Spanish term or phrase: Lugar, fecha y orden de nacimiento
Hola:

Es uno de esos trabajos cortitos (un certificado de nacimiento de Honduras), realmente me confunde la palabra orden... lugar y fecha por cierto, pero orden de nacimiento...

Ojalá algún hondureño me pueda ayudar en esto :)

Gracias
Rocio Barrientos
Bolivia
Local time: 16:47
place, date and order of birth
Explanation:
The difference between "birth order" and "order of birth" is a subtle one, but I think it's important here. "Birth order" normally denotes whether the child is the eldest, second child, third child, etc., in the family:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_order

But this is not what the reference to "orden" on Honduran birth certificates refers to; it means whether the child is the first or second of twins or the first, second or third of triplets, etc.

I think that to make this distinction you must use "order of birth", because "birth order" will inevitably be understood in the other sense. You could add "in multiple births" in parentheses, to make it clear.

This piece of data is mentioned in the Honduran "Manual del Registro Civil", immediately after the instructions on how the registrar should record the place and date of birth:

"Orden de parto: Este espacio se utilizará únicamente cuando el parto sea múltiple, anotando en letras el orden en que nació el inscrito.
Número de parto; Anotará en letras el número de personas nacidas en el parto [...]"
http://www.rnp.hn/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/manual_de_regis... (p. 12).

Bear in mind this is what the registrar writes in the register. Then when the birth certificate is issued, this piece of information, if applicable, is included under "Lugar, fecha y orden de nacimiento". There is nothing else in the Manual on this; it must mean "orden de parto".

Usually, of course, it is not applicable, and does not appear in the three examples of Honduran birth cerficates I have found on the Internet. In all of them, the heading is "Lugar, fecha y orden de nacimiento", but only the place and the date appear:
http://www.congresonacional.hn/phocadownload/subsidiossuplen... (p. 50)
http://www.congresonacional.hn/phocadownload/subsidiossuplen... (p. 33)
http://www.revistazo.biz/cms/images/stories/Subsidios_German... (p. 96).

This tends to confirm that it refers to orden of birth in multiple births and not to birth order, because everyone has a birth order but only twins and triplets etc. have an order of birth in this sense.

So this answer to a previously question was correct, though it wasn't documented from Honduran sources:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/certificates_di...

The other advantage of this is that you don't have to say "birthplace" etc., nor "place of date of birth and birth order", which you would have to say with that expression; you can just say "place, date and order of birth", which is neater.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2012-07-31 17:01:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Henry says my reasoning does not convince him. I'm not sure whether he's referring to what "orden de nacimiento" means here or how to express it, but I stand by both points. The Honduran sources I have cited put the meaning beyond doubt; this refers only to multiple births. As to how to express it, the use of "birth order" to refer to the order of siblings is so widespread (just Google it) that I am sure it will be misinterpreted if you use it here. It has to be "order of birth".
Selected response from:

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 22:47
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +11place, date and order of birth
Charles Davis
5 +4birthplace, birthdate and birth order
Henry Hinds
4 +2place, date and birth order
José J. Martínez


  

Answers


5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
lugar, fecha y orden de nacimiento
place, date and birth order


Explanation:
apparently

José J. Martínez
United States
Local time: 13:47
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in SpanishSpanish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Patricia Ramirez
5 mins
agree  Esperanza González
1 hr
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

16 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +4
lugar, fecha y orden de nacimiento
birthplace, birthdate and birth order


Explanation:
Así lo diría yo, sin ser hondureño.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 51 minutos (2012-07-31 16:34:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Orden de nacimiento; o sea que si viene siendo el primogénito, segundo, tercero (hasta el décimocuarto y más en algunos casos) entre los hijos habidos en el matrimonio. Lo acabo de ver en una acta mexicana algo antigua pero se expresa de otra manera. Las más recientes no recopilan ese dato.


Henry Hinds
United States
Local time: 14:47
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in SpanishSpanish
PRO pts in category: 1018
Notes to answerer
Asker: Hola amigo, qué es un "birth order" tienes alguna idea tú que ves certificados todo el tiempo


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Salloz: Previsores los hondureños, de una vez asientan quién es el primogénito o, si hay gemelos, cuál nació primero. ;D
5 mins
  -> Gracias, Salloz.
agree  EirTranslations
23 mins
  -> Gracias, Beatriz.
agree  Ruth Wöhlk
37 mins
  -> Gracias, Ruth.
neutral  Charles Davis: I don't think "birth order" is a suitable term here. Also Henry, no offence, but how can you post confidence 5 when you have no evidence from Honduras? // But how can you tell you've understood // Not really; I just want you to think about it honestly.
50 mins
  -> Your solution is OK, but the reasoning does not convince me. I can read, Charlie, and for me that is more than enough. Really, Charlie, do you really want me to answer such a silly question? Si es así, quédate con las ganas. Forget it.
agree  Beth Farkas
5 hrs
  -> Gracias, Beth.
neutral  philgoddard: The repetition of "birth" is awkward.
6 hrs
  -> It's also accurate.
disagree  Rosa Paredes: birth order (??)
7 hrs
  -> Never heard of it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_order About 1,470,000 results Learn something.
agree  MollyRose: I have seen "birth order." If this were a form, this would be the most precise way to say it.
1 day 6 hrs
  -> Gracias, Molly. Apparently it is a form.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +11
lugar, fecha y orden de nacimiento
place, date and order of birth


Explanation:
The difference between "birth order" and "order of birth" is a subtle one, but I think it's important here. "Birth order" normally denotes whether the child is the eldest, second child, third child, etc., in the family:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_order

But this is not what the reference to "orden" on Honduran birth certificates refers to; it means whether the child is the first or second of twins or the first, second or third of triplets, etc.

I think that to make this distinction you must use "order of birth", because "birth order" will inevitably be understood in the other sense. You could add "in multiple births" in parentheses, to make it clear.

This piece of data is mentioned in the Honduran "Manual del Registro Civil", immediately after the instructions on how the registrar should record the place and date of birth:

"Orden de parto: Este espacio se utilizará únicamente cuando el parto sea múltiple, anotando en letras el orden en que nació el inscrito.
Número de parto; Anotará en letras el número de personas nacidas en el parto [...]"
http://www.rnp.hn/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/manual_de_regis... (p. 12).

Bear in mind this is what the registrar writes in the register. Then when the birth certificate is issued, this piece of information, if applicable, is included under "Lugar, fecha y orden de nacimiento". There is nothing else in the Manual on this; it must mean "orden de parto".

Usually, of course, it is not applicable, and does not appear in the three examples of Honduran birth cerficates I have found on the Internet. In all of them, the heading is "Lugar, fecha y orden de nacimiento", but only the place and the date appear:
http://www.congresonacional.hn/phocadownload/subsidiossuplen... (p. 50)
http://www.congresonacional.hn/phocadownload/subsidiossuplen... (p. 33)
http://www.revistazo.biz/cms/images/stories/Subsidios_German... (p. 96).

This tends to confirm that it refers to orden of birth in multiple births and not to birth order, because everyone has a birth order but only twins and triplets etc. have an order of birth in this sense.

So this answer to a previously question was correct, though it wasn't documented from Honduran sources:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/certificates_di...

The other advantage of this is that you don't have to say "birthplace" etc., nor "place of date of birth and birth order", which you would have to say with that expression; you can just say "place, date and order of birth", which is neater.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2012-07-31 17:01:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Henry says my reasoning does not convince him. I'm not sure whether he's referring to what "orden de nacimiento" means here or how to express it, but I stand by both points. The Honduran sources I have cited put the meaning beyond doubt; this refers only to multiple births. As to how to express it, the use of "birth order" to refer to the order of siblings is so widespread (just Google it) that I am sure it will be misinterpreted if you use it here. It has to be "order of birth".

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 22:47
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 483
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  liz askew: sure is. This has come up before in a translation I did some time ago./We flog ourselves to death on researching:)
24 mins
  -> Thanks very much, Liz :)
agree  lorenab23: Very convincing references Charles, cheers!
1 hr
  -> Many thanks, Lorena :)
agree  Simon Bruni: Pretty conclusive
4 hrs
  -> Thanks a lot, Simon :)
agree  philgoddard
5 hrs
  -> Thanks, Phil
agree  AllegroTrans
6 hrs
  -> Thanks, Allegro!
agree  Rosa Paredes: Precisely!
6 hrs
  -> Thanks very much, Rosa!
agree  Salloz
7 hrs
  -> Many thanks, Salloz :)
agree  MollyRose: sounds natural in the sentence
1 day 5 hrs
  -> Thanks, Molly!
agree  nidiapecol: Charles Davis: Thanks so much for the wealth of information in your response. VERY helpful!
275 days
  -> You're welcome! I'm very glad it was helpful. Thanks for your comment :)
agree  Dimar11103: I was going to use "birth order", but you offered a very good & convincing explanation of the subtle difference. I will use "order of birth" for the honduran b.c. I'm doing...Thank you Charles!
694 days
  -> You're most welcome! I'm very glad if it's been helpful, and thanks a lot for taking the trouble to say so :)
agree  Patrick Weill
2778 days
  -> Thank you, Patrick!
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