Cultura árabe

15:59 Oct 25, 2011 

I was referring to 'morisco' used as an adjective, as in 'arquitectura morisca'. My fault for switching languages midstream. In fact, 'morisco' is rarely used as a noun in everyday language here. Anyway, I've learnt a lot from this discussion, and will be careful in handling these terms from now on. There are so many cases of words with connotations that vary from one place to another, politically and otherwise. Still off-topic, but I was trying to convey that the possible derogatory use of words connected to 'Moor' or 'Moro' may be fairly local, and does not extend to all Spanish-speaking countries. I wouldn't expect it to extend to English 21st century translations either, though it was probably different in Shakespeare's time.

14:59 Oct 25, 2011 

(I somehow thought this one might kick off again.)

Reflecting on the difference (if any) between Moorish and Arab(ic) culture, I would suggest that Moorish could comfortably cover religion, architecture, art, cuisine and way of life. Anything that also encompassed Mathematics or Philosophy would have to be called Arab/ic - we don't generally talk about Moorish Mathematics etc. Arab, yes. In fact, 47 Google hits v. 72,000 + for these two terms.

14:46 Oct 25, 2011 

sorry I didn't clarify that bit. Still not to be confused with just "Moors". As you say, they were the ones who were forced to "convert"

14:30 Oct 25, 2011 

ARE "Moors", but the term refers to those who stayed in Spain and converted to Christianity in order to do so.

14:23 Oct 25, 2011 

but just in case anyone thought it might be: Moriscos are completely different to the Moors or anything Moorish

14:03 Oct 25, 2011 

'Moorish' sounds fine to me, but in this context I'd choose 'Arab', as I feel it is more general and thus suitable for the context. People of Arab descent are usually misnamed 'Turcos' in Argentina, but the term is used fairly affectionately. 'Morisco' is far from derogatory, bringing to mind romantic views of the Alhambra. Off-topic, I know, but just to show how distance (geographical and historical) can affect viewpoints.

14:26 Oct 24, 2011 

In fact, it's widely accepted (not only in academic circles!). In a separate link, "Moor" is shown to be the term used by Spaniards for "Muslim" - either way, it isn't being used in a derogatory fashion - whilst UNESCO quite happily uses "Moorish culture" (bottom link, here). The top link is a book title (available on Amazon)

Moorish Culture in Spain
www.isn1.net › BOOKS
A unique study of the Moors' arrival to the Iberian peninsula in 711 until the Renaissance, examining the manner of life and the achievements in architecture, ...

WHAT DID THE MOORS DO FOR US? - Culture Spain
www.culturespain.com/articles/what-did-the-moors-do-for-us/
What did the Moors do for us? A great deal - and most of it was vital to Northern Europe. See the incredible advances the Moors brought to Europe and the ...


Toledo Christian Jewish Moorish Culture UNESCO World Heritage ...


www.youtube.com/watch?v=VET9Lw-MR3Y15 Apr 2009 - 10 min - Uploaded
Toledo Christian Jewish Moorish Culture UNESCO World Heritage Multiculture Spain EU by BK Bazhe.com. BAZHE 419 ...

13:31 Oct 24, 2011 

David! Back to the grindstone for the both of us!

13:13 Oct 24, 2011 

Even "Spaniard" can have pejorative connotations, harking back to Elizabethan times. I think it all depends in what spirit the word is said.

13:07 Oct 24, 2011 

Good point about Arab. Kids certainly used that in my schooldays, and not in a nice way.

13:04 Oct 24, 2011 

I meant of course in relation specifically to Spain, and not to the Arab world as it is or was. Nor of course to the Arab Spring which is totally unrelated. But I wonder whether that is subconsciously affecting our thinking...

@ Kate: don't forget that "Arab" was pretty derogatory not all that long ago - certainly post Shakespeare! Fortunately, we now live in more tolerant times :)

12:57 Oct 24, 2011 

but I'm dashing off for lunch. I'm quite sure there are a good many other valid egs, not all relating to to the Catholic Herald.

But in any case, I'd still use "Moorish conquest", "Moorish culture" and "Moorish civilisation" as they don't tend to be separated out into anything more specific like "Arab culture", "Berber culture", etc unless of course the context is really talking about such subdivisions - which would be most unusual, and doesn't appear to be the case in the Asker's context. I never heard of any Spanish architecture, art etc, being referred to as specifically "Arabic" or "Berber" and not "Moorish". I should be interested to know of any examples of this - no doubt there are some - it's just that they would be quite rare and therefore less likely - especially given the new context!

12:47 Oct 24, 2011 

I see your point, and to an extent I agree that it may be a generic reference, but I am still unsure if it fits the regular usage...

12:43 Oct 24, 2011 

is called Moro. I thoroughly recommend their cookbook:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Moro-Cookbook-Samuel-Clark/dp/009188...

London is one of the world's least racist places, in my opinion.

Sorry if I keep going a bit off-topic, it's a stimulating interesting discussion and displacement activity for me (I should be working)

12:38 Oct 24, 2011 

and perhaps I'm just over-sensitized regarding the term since I live in Andalusia and the north Africans who live here despise the term "moro", and hence I would avoid the equivalent in English. I agree that it's not as perjoritive as some other terms, but I think it's easily avoided. It's great to here all these opinions on the subject! :) And yes, I think since the original is "Árabe" "Arab" culture would be a perfectly good term without using anything with a more difficult history and connotations. @Carol, surely a letter to the Catholic Herald isn't that good an example of neutral use of the term, given the history?

12:31 Oct 24, 2011 

We say Moorish conquest because it was the Moors that conquered Spain. Here, however, the author is referring to the more general concept of Arabic culture that was brought to the Peninsula by these people.

12:30 Oct 24, 2011 

My course at uni was during this current century, believe it or not! Moorish was and still is the term used, and nobody has been accused of being racist yet! Don't forget that the Moorish conquest and the civilisation that followed it happened several centuries ago, and renaming it the Arab conquest now would seem a rather odd idea. I don't feel in the least uncomfortable using both "Moorish conquest" and "Moorish civilisation", as in: "Moorish Science Academy - The Masons and the Moorsmoorishacademy.org/articles/the_masons_and_the_moors.htmlCached - Similar
You +1'd this publicly. Undo
Western historians conveniently ignored the immense contribution of the brilliant and energetic Moorish civilisation in delivering Europe from mediaeval ...
LETTERS TO THE EDITOR Spain's debt to Moorish civilisation | 11th ...archive.catholicherald.co.uk/.../letters-to-the-editor-spains-debt-to-m...Cached

11 Jul 2003 – 'LETTERS TO THE EDITOR Spain's debt to Moorish civilisation' first printed in the 11th July 2003 issue of Catholic Herald Magazine.
". The same of course applies to Moorish culture

12:29 Oct 24, 2011 

Ok. However, you say that you talk about "the Moorish conquest", so I understand that you use, as Carol suggested, this word to refer to those events related with the Arabic cultures that were in Spain for many years, right?

Here is a little more context that may help to solve this. Below the graphic there is a little text that goes like this:

- Romanas y clásicas: griegos, bizantinos, fenicios
- Germánicas: suevos, alanos, vándalos, godos/visigodos,...
- Árabe

And nothing more :-/

12:24 Oct 24, 2011 

Because 'Moorish' refers more specifically to the people of a certain part of North Africa, not to Arabic culture as a whole.

12:22 Oct 24, 2011 

with Simon

12:21 Oct 24, 2011 

But not for reasons of political correctness. It is simply not what what the author is saying. "árabe" is a broader term which 'Moorish', quite simply, does not cover.

12:20 Oct 24, 2011 

As for the main discussion - it is very interesting, but as I said (even twice I think), I am looking for the usual name: I think it is not my place to decide whether the name that has always been used in History studies is right or wrong in a modern sense. I just look for the right translation, that is all.

Now, Simon said that the Moorish word wouldn't apply in this context: why is that, Simon? If I may ask.

12:20 Oct 24, 2011 

teach us the term at school. The only Moor(e) we knew about was Bobby.

12:17 Oct 24, 2011 

Certainly when I was at school the term was taught to me as perjoritive, the same as "Red Indian" and other such antiquated terms. I don't know - I accept that there's a few of you who disagree with me, at least in part, but I just think it's easily avoided in this case.

12:14 Oct 24, 2011 

Jewish is not a negative word when used normally. I think "Moor" is, actually. To give an example, in a modern text I would maintain "moorish" where quoting older texts. I would use "Arabic" everywhere else where possible, the same as I would use "negro slaves" only when quoting an older text where the term "African slaves" could not be used. It may well be a question of taste and opinion, but I think that in this particular case where a modern equivalent exists "Arab culture" I see no need to use the outdated and less safe term "Moorish".

12:10 Oct 24, 2011 

(and possibly irrelevant) footnote to this discussion is that Karl Marx's family's affectionate nickname for him was "Moor".

12:07 Oct 24, 2011 

because you said - indeed, reiterated - below: "it's not that I think it is racist in its use, but in its connotations and history". The same goes for Jew/Jewish. And would you avoid talking about the Yiddish language or Yiddish Theatre because "Yid" is generally regarded as an offensive term for Jew? Again, that would be absurd.

12:03 Oct 24, 2011 

Thanks for the side note David!

12:02 Oct 24, 2011 

Not the same at all, David. It would be a reason for avoiding perjoritive terms for Jewish. My point was, we can't exactly look to Shakespeare for examples of political correctness, and less so to match today's tastes and contexts! :)

12:01 Oct 24, 2011 

Oup - and no pun intended, haha!

12:00 Oct 24, 2011 

that Othello is a full and complex character with much more than just negative connotations to his Moorishness (and Shylock more than just a hideous anti-Semitic depiction - the Merchant was much performed in the old Yiddish Theatre in New York). If you wouldn't use Moor/Moorish because of historically negative connotations, then presumably you would have to avoid using Jewish for the same reasons. That would be absurd.

12:00 Oct 24, 2011 

OK - it's an opinion. But as I post above, you only have to go as far as wikipedia to find mention of the negative connotations that exist - they're there, in black and white.

11:59 Oct 24, 2011 

to go out of one's way to avoid a term that is in common usage in the context, and has absolutely no negative connotations. As Simon says, we say "Moorish conquest" and not "Arab conquest" for "conquista arabe" (sorry, no accents on my keyboard!). The same applies to the culture and civilisation that they brought to Spain all those centuries ago.

11:54 Oct 24, 2011 

that it's not that I think it is racist in its use, but in its connotations and history. I am fully aware of the history of Arabic culture and how much further they were advanced than the Europeans. The point I'm making is not related to how you or I regard the different cultures.

11:52 Oct 24, 2011 

"Moor" is sometimes colloquially applied to any person from North Africa. Some people to whom it is applied consider the term pejorative and racist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

I understand its correctness in the Spanish context, but I still would avoid the term if I thought it was possible - and in this case it is fully possible to avoid it with the direct translation of "Arab culture".

11:50 Oct 24, 2011 

There are absolutely no negative connotations to "Moorish culture". Promise! I think you're trying to read too much recent history into this, whereas the Moorish culture dates back many centuries, and was extremely civilised compared to Europeans at the time, who did not bath, and knew far less about science, medicine and maths for instance. We were comparative barbarians! Of course, some of this culture came from Arabia, but not all of it... there was Mesopotamia, Babylonia, for instance. What came to Spain was a combination of all of this.

11:49 Oct 24, 2011 

And is indeed full of negative connotations in that very case, in the same way as Shylock in the Merchant of Venice is the most hideously anti-semite depiction of a Jewish person! In fact, I would say that the term was more perjoritive in the past than it is now, and that the reason I would avoid it is for historical reasons rather than otherwise - I don't feel it is meant negatively in modern times, but is best avoided for the sake of modernity in order to avoid past connotations!

11:45 Oct 24, 2011 

I was in the middle of making the same point when your post popped up. I don't believe "Moorish" has any negative connotations in English - Othello and all that.

11:44 Oct 24, 2011 

But it took on the meaning "black" - see my comments above, and while that's fine, surely it doesn't cover the meaning of "Arab" when talking about the culture brought to the north of Africa and then Spain?

11:42 Oct 24, 2011 

Its etymological roots are in "of Mauritania", nothing to do with "black".

11:41 Oct 24, 2011 

Yes Simon, that's quite true, though where possible I would be inclined to use the more neutral term, perhaps. It's a very very interesting debate!

11:39 Oct 24, 2011 

OK Carol - that's your opinion, but I think given the context and the age we live in "Moorish" is just not OK!

11:39 Oct 24, 2011 

There are indeed some specific collocations when 'árabe' becomes 'Moorish' in English. For instance, we refer to the "conquista árabe de Hispania" as the "Moorish conquest".

However, this is not one of those occasions.

11:38 Oct 24, 2011 

Whether ordinary Spaniards - and even lecturers - do discriminate between the two, writers in English must! Unless, of course, this is a translation of a very old text and the original feeling is to be maintained. I do not think "Moorish" (literally, "black" - see the pejorative "moro" in modern Spanish or "black" - "mouro"- in Galician) is appropriate really, or even correct. The connotations are pretty negative, and while this could be seen as accidental and harmless, it's best to be careful - "Arab" is a more accurate and safe term.

11:30 Oct 24, 2011 

I don't think I ever claimed they were exactly the same. However, it is more usual, when referring to things cultural as opposed to language or race, to refer to the Moorish culture and influences. Our lectures were on the history and culture of Spain, not specifically on Moorish Culture. But this was nevertheless the term used. It of course does include Arab influences, but these were never separated from Moorish influences. Nobody ever talked about "Arab and/or Moorish" culture, as Moorish covered the lot. Neither are these separated in Spanish culture.

11:27 Oct 24, 2011 

Sorry, "both 'Moorish' and 'Arabian' are less suitable terms."

11:26 Oct 24, 2011 

The best answer, on reflection, is "Arab culture" and I am removing my answer to agree with someone else, as I think the most important thing is getting the right term for the job and for the asker, which, in this case, is "Arab culture". "Arabic" is OK, but as someone has pointed out, is more commonly used to refer to the language. And as I would reiterate, both "Moorish" and "Arabian". "Moorish" is fine if you are sure that you are only referring to specific tribes from the north of Africa and not Arabic culture in general - I also think it has historical negative connotations not associated with the term "Arab".

11:24 Oct 24, 2011 

and with a capital 'C' (though I know this is not the focus of the question)

11:19 Oct 24, 2011 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors
As you can see, "Moors" are not limited to "Arabs" - not the same thing at all.

11:18 Oct 24, 2011 

I don't doubt that your lectures were on "Moorish culture"! I just wanted to point out that "Moorish" and "Arab/Arabic" (and also "Arabian") are by no means synonymous, and it seems to me that where we are talking about "cultura árabe", unless you are only specifically referring to that of the north of Africa "Moorish" is not the correct term. See any site referring to the matter, such as the wiki on "Moors" that I posted below. As Simon also points out, "Arabian" is not the correct term here either unless you are specifically referring to the culture of the Arabian peninsula. These three terms are not synonymous, though there is an overlap.

11:14 Oct 24, 2011 

missed out gastronomy!

11:13 Oct 24, 2011 

sorry, no room to reply in the box!

Our lectures were referring to the Moorish culture in general in Spain (they were Spanish History lectures). This covered culture in general, including architecture and gardens (the Alhambra, etc, etc), medicine, art, engineering, mathematics, science and a host of other things related to civilisation in general, as well as the influence on the Spanish language (eg, all the words beginning with "al", etc)

10:46 Oct 24, 2011 

Well, I guess they all may work. Thank you all, and thanks for two new options that I didn't think of to Carol!