| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | 请帮忙看一个荷兰的电话号码 Thread poster: Shouguang Cao
|
|---|
ysun 
United States
Local time: 01:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Typical manipulation | Jun 27, 2009 |
wherestip wrote: ysun wrote:
该出局者后来亲自起草了一份请愿书，企图运用“潜规则”让某些与他有合作关系的同事为他联名上诉。 其中某位同事感到实难从命，就把那份请愿书转发给我，问我如何应对为妥。 可见，这世界上还有金钱买不到的东西。其实，这是人生最简单的道理。
Well, we've seen that before, haven't we?  I personally believe it's just as underhanded a thing to do as assuming fake identities, for whatever reason. But I also know that "it takes all sorts to make a world". 
As I mentioned above, that colleague was very reluctant to sign the petition under the pressure and the "unspoken rules". So, the colleague forwarded that petition to me for advice. Then, I immediately forwarded that petition to where it was supposed to be. I am not going to disclose the entire draft of that petition here, but I'd like to share with you just a few sentences of the petition to show what it looks like. Nevertheless, I will never reveal the identity of that colleague in public for protection reasons.
In the petition, using the third person pronoun, that former member wrote that ‘he’ has been “a positive contributor to the Chinese Forum”, “Many members esteem him as a mentor.” He further wrote that “It would be such a shame to lose him” as if he had been deprived of his due right.
Apparently, cooking up such a petition is a fraudulent behavior. Do you think such a petition would be effective if it is presented to the management no matter how many signatures he could ever collect?
That kind of manipulations looks very similar to what has happened in political elections in many places. As a Taiwan citizenship test put it: 花錢買選票早已是台灣鄉間選舉的「文化」，而「賄選」之風更是台灣選舉的敗筆。
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2004-01-11/16471560009s.shtml
| | | | Shouguang Cao
China
Local time: 14:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
当事人被禁言了，没法出来辩解了。法庭上被告还必须有辩护律师呢。
ysun 说得对，不了解，就不要掺和。但请愿书我是签了名的，我不光签了名，还给网站管理层写了封信。因此可能比 Angeline 了解多一些，我不知道别的签名者是什么情况，就仅说说我自己是什么情况吧。
我拿到请愿书之后，并不知道是由谁来写的，我也不在意到底是谁写的，但我明白我�... See more 当事人被禁言了，没法出来辩解了。法庭上被告还必须有辩护律师呢。
ysun 说得对，不了解，就不要掺和。但请愿书我是签了名的，我不光签了名，还给网站管理层写了封信。因此可能比 Angeline 了解多一些，我不知道别的签名者是什么情况，就仅说说我自己是什么情况吧。
我拿到请愿书之后，并不知道是由谁来写的，我也不在意到底是谁写的，但我明白我答应签名，就意味着我认同上面的内容。作为一个成年人，我有充分的自由，可以选择签还是不签。我不相信除了我党，还有谁能逼我做我不愿意做的事情。此外我签名时与该“出局者”并没有合作关系。
另外还有个小插曲，我在答应签了之后，又撤回了，我要求撤除其中一条，不撤除，我就无法签。后来该条没有被撤除，但请愿书后面附加了一个关于我不同意该条目的例外注解。这种做法也是经我同意的。
ysun wrote: wherestip wrote: ysun wrote:
该出局者后来亲自起草了一份请愿书，企图运用“潜规则”让某些与他有合作关系的同事为他联名上诉。 其中某位同事感到实难从命，就把那份请愿书转发给我，问我如何应对为妥。 可见，这世界上还有金钱买不到的东西。其实，这是人生最简单的道理。
Well, we've seen that before, haven't we? I personally believe it's just as underhanded a thing to do as assuming fake identities, for whatever reason. But I also know that "it takes all sorts to make a world". As I mentioned above, that colleague was very reluctant to sign the petition under the pressure and the "unspoken rules". So, the colleague forwarded that petition to me for advice. Then, I immediately forwarded that petition to where it was supposed to be. I am not going to disclose the entire draft of that petition here, but I'd like to share with you just a few sentences of the petition to show what it looks like. Nevertheless, I will never reveal the identity of that colleague in public for protection reasons. In the petition, using the third person pronoun, that former member wrote that ‘he’ has been “a positive contributor to the Chinese Forum”, “Many members esteem him as a mentor.” He further wrote that “It would be such a shame to lose him” as if he had been deprived of his due right. Apparently, cooking up such a petition is a fraudulent behavior. Do you think such a petition would be effective if it is presented to the management no matter how many signatures he could ever collect? That kind of manipulations looks very similar to what has happened in political elections in many places. As a Taiwan citizenship test put it: 花錢買選票早已是台灣鄉間選舉的「文化」，而「賄選」之風更是台灣選舉的敗筆。 http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2004-01-11/16471560009s.shtml
[Edited at 2009-06-27 19:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
| He or you may send an email to ProZ.com management | Jun 27, 2009 |
Thank you for your reminding and clarification! I believe he can still send an email to the ProZ.com management if he would like to. Alternatively, you may submit a support ticket on his behalf. I am pretty sure that the management has that petition on file.
Next time when you receive a purchase order for a translation project, please make sure you know who has written the P.O. or who has sent it to you before you put your signature on it! ... See more Thank you for your reminding and clarification! I believe he can still send an email to the ProZ.com management if he would like to. Alternatively, you may submit a support ticket on his behalf. I am pretty sure that the management has that petition on file.
Next time when you receive a purchase order for a translation project, please make sure you know who has written the P.O. or who has sent it to you before you put your signature on it!
It’s already 2:30 AM in China. Please take care of yourself!
Dallas Cao wrote:
当事人被禁言了，没法出来辩解了。
ysun 说得对，不了解，就不要掺和。但请愿书我是签了名的，我不光签了名，还给网站管理层写了封信。因此可能比 Angeline 了解多一些。
我拿到请愿书之后，并不知道是由谁来写的，我也不在意到底是由来写的，但我明白我答应签名，就意味着我认同上面的内容。我有充分的自由，可以选择签还是不签。我不相信除了我党，还有谁能逼我做我不愿意做的事情。
另外还有个小插曲，我在答应签了之后，又撤回了，我要求撤除其中一条，不撤除，我就无法签。后来该条没有去撤除，但请愿书后面附加加了一个关于我不同意该条目的例外注解。
[Edited at 2009-06-27 18:26 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-06-28 00:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
| 这世界上还有金钱买不到的东西 | Jun 27, 2009 |
Although I said “there is something money can not buy”, I must admit that there are a lot of things, even human being, money can certainly buy!
| | |
|
|
|
ysun
United States
Local time: 01:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Forum moderator | Jun 27, 2009 |
Dallas Cao wrote:
proz.com 的井井有条是靠各版主的辛勤劳动而实现的。作为一个专业论坛，版主之所以为版主，应是因为其专业知识和经验得到了其他参与者的认可。而 proz.com 的版主则更像警察、像行政长官，自上而下指认（？）。大多数的精力都用在了维持秩序上。更让我惊讶的是：这一切工作还都是免费的！一个德高望重的专业人士，如何会自愿免费为一个商业提供与自己的专业不怎么相干的服务？
近期因 linkedin 和 facebook 通过 crowdsourcing 为自己的网站做本地化而引起专业翻译的不满。proz.com 作为一个商业网站，为什么还要免费利用版主？作为翻译网站，居然利用免费 crowdsourcing 本地化自己的网站，实在不是尊重这个行业，尊重翻译的做法。
Dallas,
Are you suggesting that the forum moderator should be paid, or should be removed? "Someone” proposed replacing the forum moderator Kevin with Donglai. Please see what Donglai said at that time:
Kevin has my full support!
http://www.proz.com/post/830107#830107
Do you agree with Donglai or not? As you know very well, the petitioner aimed his spearhead at one particular person in that petition. Is that something you wanted to remove from the petition before you agreed to sign the petition?
It's lunch time over here. I am now going to join our community celebration party. See you later!
| | | | chance (X)
French to Chinese
+ ...
| No endless insinuations, please | Jun 27, 2009 |
我现在所有的帖子都要受审，往往通不过，或是被推迟好几天，所以我决定不再上这个论坛，但是我觉得大陆几位年轻人能站出来说几句公道话很可贵，我支持。
我觉得Wenjer的缺点和优点同样突出，我并不完全同意他的一些做法，但他还是属于可以与之探讨的人，不至于逆我者亡。
I don't think other person has the right to make endless attacks by innuendo more than six months ... See more 我现在所有的帖子都要受审，往往通不过，或是被推迟好几天，所以我决定不再上这个论坛，但是我觉得大陆几位年轻人能站出来说几句公道话很可贵，我支持。
我觉得Wenjer的缺点和优点同样突出，我并不完全同意他的一些做法，但他还是属于可以与之探讨的人，不至于逆我者亡。
I don't think other person has the right to make endless attacks by innuendo more than six months after his ID remove.
Please do not whip the devil round the stump, many colleagues in this forum are aware of at least part of the truth. Your endless insinuations have ruined the atmosphere here, that's is why less and less peers participate in this forum.
Please do not be too confident, Wenjer himself did not write the petition, and it had over 20 signatures. By the way, how many signatures you can have for your behavior?
[Edited at 2009-06-27 19:27 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-06-27 19:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Shouguang Cao
China
Local time: 14:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
不当家不知柴米贵。可以想象当版主会有多难，需要多少时间和精力，尤其是中文这个版面，想主持公道，就得看完全部吵架贴。像我当热闹看是消遣，如果是工作，必须要去做个判断那个就惨了。
请忽略关于版主那一段，我的想法完全不成熟，也没有什么建议或答案。只破不立，只是些简单想法，往细问了我也不知道怎么回答。总结起来有以下几点：
1. 让版主整天奔忙于删贴改贴这样的工作是荒唐的。
2. 管理层将人禁言是不可取的。
3. 通过 crowdsourcing 将网站本地化，proz 显示出了商人的精明，但没有体现出对这个行业的尊重。
我要求删除了我不太了解情况的内容。但对于请愿书的主体要求，即要求恢复 wenjer 的 ID 和发言权我是认同的。
[Edited at 2009-06-27 19:52 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
| 想办法驳倒这样的语言大师 | Jun 27, 2009 |
Dallas Cao wrote:
在 proz.com 的人不用说都是有文化，有知识的，不能说脏话是毫无疑问的啦，还要全方位政治正确，不能有不标准的网络用语或黑话，一切都看上去很美，谁让咱有文化呢。然而对于语言大师来说，暴力、恶意和恶毒的招数完全可以道貌岸然地发出来的，这三点，中文论坛上可是一点都不缺呢。
朝鲜有个女主播，极为生猛，以强势的语气和不容辩驳的语法向敌人发出控诉。用朝鲜官方的说法，此人一张口，即可让敌人肝胆俱裂。这种气氛，是不是在主导着 proz.com 中文论坛？试问各位，你们认为我们念叨的那些 proz 精神，真得存在于这个论坛么？
[Edited at 2009-06-27 19:05 GMT]
如果你能通过摆事实、讲道理，逐一（post-by-post and quote-by-quote）驳倒这样的语言大师，公开揭露他们道貌岸然地发出的“暴力、恶意和恶毒的招数”，那才显示了你的雄辩，那才证明你是辩论大师。否则，如果光是说上面那种不着边际的话，或者光是扣大帽子，那顶多只能说明你有理（if any）说不出。至于某些人赤裸裸的脏话、黑话、谩骂、侮辱、人身攻击等等，只能说明那种人本身的无能和下流。 这种人能算是有文化的吗？这种做法最容易被执法者逮住，蠢就蠢在这里。
| | |
|
|
|
ysun
United States
Local time: 01:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
| You need to provide sufficient reasons | Jun 27, 2009 |
This is not an election. If it were an election, you might be entitled to cast your vote without giving any reasons. If you want to prove that the management was wrong with that decision and you want to overturn that decision, you need to provide sufficient reasons. Moreover, you should submit your support ticket or another petition to the management because I don’t think the management's decision is something open for discussion in public in this forum.
Dallas Cao wrote:
不当家不知柴米贵。可以想象当版主会有多难，需要多少时间和精力，尤其是中文这个版面，想主持公道，就得看完全部吵架贴。像我当热闹看是消遣，如果是工作，必须要去做个判断那个就惨了。
请忽略关于版主那一段，我的想法完全不成熟，也没有什么建议或答案。只破不立，只是些简单想法，往细问了我也不知道怎么回答。总结起来有以下几点：
1. 让版主整天奔忙于删贴改贴这样的工作是荒唐的。
2. 管理层将人禁言是不可取的。
3. 通过 crowdsourcing 将网站本地化，proz 显示出了商人的精明，但没有体现出对这个行业的尊重。
我要求删除了我不太了解情况的内容。但对于请愿书的主体要求，即要求恢复 wenjer 的 ID 和发言权我是认同的。
[Edited at 2009-06-27 19:52 GMT]
Wait a minute! Did you mean to say that Enforcement of the Proz.com rules should be abolished in the first place?
Also, could you please provide just ONE example to show that any forum moderator has revised any of your posts or any other member's/user's posts? This is something new to me. Did you or any other members/users ever protest against such actions?
http://www.proz.com/rules
Enforcement
Staff members and moderators may take any of the following actions to enforce the above rules:
* contacting site users to call attention to specific rules
* refraining from approving (or removing/hiding) postings that violate a rule
* causing a message related to the rules to appear to certain users when they undertake certain actions
* suspending, temporarily or permanently, access to site features that have been used in violation of the rules.
* termination of profile or membership (staff only)
Moderators and staff members must act in accordance with, and are protected by, site rules in exactly the same way as other members.
Termination
In rare cases of severe infraction, ProZ.com staff members may terminate a profile (and membership) with immediate effect. In most cases, however, ProZ.com uses a "yellow card/red card" policy, akin to yellow-card/red-card practice in the sport of football/soccer, for terminations.
Yellow and red cards are issued only by staff members. Rules are cited by number, and the date of the card is logged. The terms "yellow card" or "red card" are used explicitly; if an email is sent, the terms appear in the subject line.
A site user who has been issued a yellow card may continue to use the site (sometimes with certain restrictions), but is otherwise under notice that further infractions will lead to termination. A person whose profile has been terminated will not be readmitted to ProZ.com.
Outsourcers are subject to the site's Termination policy.
Clarification
For clarification regarding any of the above rules or rules enforcement, please submit a support request.
[Edited at 2009-06-28 00:41 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Another option | Jun 27, 2009 |
Dallas Cao wrote:
当事人被禁言了，没法出来辩解了。
[Edited at 2009-06-27 19:59 GMT]
As an alternative, he may choose to register at ProZ.com again as a "new user" using a new User ID such as “Sharon Stone” or “芙蓉姐夫" or whatever in the same way as “someone” already did although I am not sure what the staff members would think.
I am very glad that your clarification about that petition at least confirmed what I said about the petition was true. Thank you so mush!
| | | | Donglai Lou (X)
China
Local time: 14:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Lord Voldemort returns?! hehe | Jun 28, 2009 |
先废话几句。昨天帮朋友搬家，搬到半夜，今天早晨又送另一个朋友赶早班飞机。刚才方看到这一串讨论，觉得有必要抛开这个身份（moderator），违反规定（关于说别人坏话，臆测别人想法等），出来说几句。作为这几年讨论事件的幕前幕后见证和涉及者，我想我对整个事件以及论坛的变化有比较全面的观察，有这个发言权。
由于这几天欠觉，头脑有点晕沉，可能会说错话，请大家当下指证，但不要几年之后突然又拿出来翻旧帐，肆意曲解。思绪有些乱，就想到一点写一点。
首先，声明一下，我并不认为自己是完人，有明哲保身，怕得罪人的时候，但我自认是一个正直的人。
| | | | Donglai Lou (X)
China
Local time: 14:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
Proz 这么多年来，不仅给我带来客户，也给我带来不少同业好友。但有那么两位朋友，却也让我领略到人性和社会的黑暗（我想此言不为过），甚至让我自感无颜以对一位兄长。其中一位就是目前的焦点文哲君。
我与文哲的交往，始于多年前我俩对日本占台问题的论坛争论。争论之后不久，我突然接到文哲打来的电话，在电话中他介绍了自己的背景并谈及合作意向。之后，我俩之间陆陆继继有些MSN的对话和业务上的往来。我当时感到，除了政治上的观点相左以后，其他方面还是很谈得来的；再加上他在论坛和Kudoz等处表现出的思辨和文采能力，以及年龄的差距，我将他敬为师长。文哲在业务的一些境界，可能是我们从许多人（特别是Freelance）从未经验过的。有些人因此而质疑他，我觉得这并不应该；更何况，诸如250欧元每千字等情况，在企业间市场并非天价。
| | |
|
|
|
Donglai Lou (X)
China
Local time: 14:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
然而，文哲君的一些个性缺陷却在他与我另一位朋友的冲突之后，逐渐显露出来直到今日我支持对他的驱逐。
应该是两年前的六、七月份，当时我正忙于期末考试，突然发现文哲被禁言了。当时，我也挺愤愤的，认为怎么能说禁就禁，也不做个民意调查呢。但由于实在太忙，又加上文哲好多贴子都是哆嗦以前说过的话，所以想禁一会儿，就禁一会儿吧。
夏�... See more 然而，文哲君的一些个性缺陷却在他与我另一位朋友的冲突之后，逐渐显露出来直到今日我支持对他的驱逐。
应该是两年前的六、七月份，当时我正忙于期末考试，突然发现文哲被禁言了。当时，我也挺愤愤的，认为怎么能说禁就禁，也不做个民意调查呢。但由于实在太忙，又加上文哲好多贴子都是哆嗦以前说过的话，所以想禁一会儿，就禁一会儿吧。
夏天略有空闲的时候，文哲与我就被禁一事做了些沟通；我就试图做一些调解，看看kevin那边能不能松动，看看我的另一位朋友能不能道个歉。但当时kevin忙于搬家，而那位仁兄呢，认为道歉的话，就全是他错了，死不让步。
事情慢慢地拖入了9月，文哲除了私下群发坛中朋友一些信件外，更将另一位朋友的客户加入其群发列表。当时虽觉不妥，但竟也认同是他被迫无奈之举。同时，乐音等同仁开始在论坛上公开表示对文哲的支持。
不过此间有一事，开始动摇我对文哲的信任。那就朋友网站被抄事件（证据十分确凿，虽有可能是网站设计公司之过，但作为网站使用者应该首先道歉，且督促网站设计公司立即改之，而非抵赖或找借口），文哲竟然颠倒是非，私下组织一些朋友就此事指责那位朋友，而且还编写两则丑化小故事四处散发。 ▲ Collapse
| | | | Donglai Lou (X)
China
Local time: 14:10
English to Chinese
+ ...
由于文哲的“组织”和“煽动”得法，再加上我那位朋友的“正直”个性在过去曾得罪不少人，于是他老兄就被请下管理员这个“宝座”了。但文哲的禁言还在或需要审查（记不清了）。
当时，Proz也不看看时局，急需找个人顶替，就让weiwei给推荐几个。当时常上论坛的也就那么几个人，我便是其中一个。这个offer，确实是个hot potato，我考虑了很久，还是硬着头皮接受了。当时的考虑就这么几条：1. 有几分好奇，想离proz再近些；2. 这个身份或许可用作为营销优势之一（目前为止，从未用过，但保留今后使用的权利）；3. 想帮weiwei（Kevin不在）维持一下秩序，让论坛回来正轨，也想代表大家在proz这边的声音。
在“走马上任”之后，我与网站的一位工作人员就论坛的管理进行了几回合大辩论，甚至可以说是争吵（现在回想起来，proz的考虑还是有些道理的）。可能是该工作人员感到没时间和我胡搅蛮缠，就把文哲的处理权下放给weiwei。然后，我又求了求文哲，让他体面地回到论坛。
| | | | clearwater
China
Local time: 14:10
English to Chinese
Donglai Lou wrote:
由于文哲的“组织”和“煽动”得法，再加上我那位朋友的“正直”个性在过去曾得罪不少人，于是他老兄就被请下管理员这个“宝座”了。但文哲的禁言还在或需要审查（记不清了）。
当时，Proz也不看看时局，急需找个人顶替，就让weiwei给推荐几个。当时常上论坛的也就那么几个人，我便是其中一个。这个offer，确实是个hot potato，我考虑了很久，还是硬着头皮接受了。当时的考虑就这么几条：1. 有几分好奇，想离proz再近些；2. 这个身份或许可用作为营销优势之一（目前为止，从未用过，但保留今后使用的权利）；3. 想帮weiwei（Kevin不在）维持一下秩序，让论坛回来正轨，也想代表大家在proz这边的声音。
在“走马上任”之后，我与网站的一位工作人员就论坛的管理进行了几回合大辩论，甚至可以说是争吵（现在回想起来，proz的考虑还是有些道理的）。可能是该工作人员感到没时间和我胡搅蛮缠，就把文哲的处理权下放给weiwei。然后，我又求了求文哲，让他体面地回到论坛。
支持东来兄！
如果没理解的错，东来兄所说的另一个正直朋友应该是建军兄吧。
这里是译员的地盘，需要的不是杂七杂八的“政治”。而有的人就是热衷于这样的政治，视哪个人不爽，就非把对方的名声搞臭不可，真是无所不用其极。
只想提醒一下：一个人与另一个人结下梁子其实很正常，但倘若这个人与一大群人结下梁子，这说明了什么呢？
而被逐的那个人恰恰正是这样一个人！
[Edited at 2009-06-28 03:58 GMT]
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » 请帮忙看一个荷兰的电话号码 | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
| | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
