| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] | 请帮忙看一个荷兰的电话号码 Thread poster: Shouguang Cao
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ysun 
United States
Local time: 07:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
Donglai Lou wrote:
坛友若是有错，即便触发众怒，还是要让事情尽快过去，不要老揪着不放
Donglai,
Generally speaking, I agree with you. I'd also like to forget the trouble as soon as possible. I’ve almost forgot that person since his disappearance. What I have been doing recently is merely trying to expose some improper behaviors, such as using fake identities or multiple identities, after a “new user” Katrin Koehler appeared in this forum earlier this month and some colleagues started discussing new topics like “Warning: Bad payer in Shanghai, 10000 usd unpaid”. I don’t think I have exceeded the boundary of the rules. If you or anybody else thinks I have violated the rules, I will be very glad to hear comments or criticism with reference to my specific posts.
BTW, as soon as “Katrin Koehler” appeared, “she” started launching personal attacks and creating disturbances. Does this remind you of something? Don’t you think such behaviors would become troubles to ProZ.com? “Katrin Koehler” disappeared as quickly as “she” appeared. Would you like to have “her” back? What if "she" comes back with another ID later, but does the same type of things again? Thank you!
[Edited at 2009-06-28 23:19 GMT]
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 07:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
chance wrote:
我觉得Wenjer的缺点和优点同样突出，我并不完全同意他的一些做法，但他还是属于可以与之探讨的人，不至于逆我者亡。
chance,
After learning the hard facts that Donglai posted, I wonder if you still feel that way? I don't know about you guys, but some of the underhanded maneuvers described by Donglai literally gave me the creeps. With so many voices condoning or in support of this kind of cutthroat unethical behavior, it almost makes me want to quit this forum altogether ... Well, we'll see.
It's good to see you around though.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
p.s. For some reason, this thread of discussion somehow reminded me of this Al Pacino movie ...
http://www.proz.com/post/719602#719602
[Edited at 2009-06-29 00:48 GMT]
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 05:13
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Let's all agree that this discussion is ended here. | Jun 28, 2009 |
Hello, Everyone!
I have read everyone's post in this thread. Please keep in mind that this discussion is not in line with the forum rules, especially when the memebr names or user names are repeatedly mentioned and the moderator's performance and role are questioned. Such discussions is better solved by filing support ticket. Since it was a case of this forum and some members are still having problem with the final decision that was made by the management of ProZ.com, I see the necc... See more Hello, Everyone!
I have read everyone's post in this thread. Please keep in mind that this discussion is not in line with the forum rules, especially when the memebr names or user names are repeatedly mentioned and the moderator's performance and role are questioned. Such discussions is better solved by filing support ticket. Since it was a case of this forum and some members are still having problem with the final decision that was made by the management of ProZ.com, I see the neccessity of taking this opportunity to voice your afterthought after many months passed, therefore I reserve my right to remove those posts.
Thank Donglai for taking time and writing the detailed recaps! I think his recaps outlined the overall development of the case. I support the decision made by the management. From this case, I hope everyone should learn that this forum is designed for professional translators who come here to learn from each other for the purpose to improve his/her translation skills and services. This site has its clear purpose and mission, so does this forum. No one has the privilege or entitlement to do things that are different from the the policies, rules and purpose of this site. As a moderator, I do all I can to enforce the rules and make sure everyone enjoys the services and information provided at the forum and site. As a member or user, you do all you can to follow the rules and interact with other members and users in mutual respect manner. As a community, we together strive to create and build a harmonious working and learning environment.
If any of you insists to perceive a moderator as a police, that is very unfortunate. If anyone of you is wandering why I teach at college but still do this moderation "job" here, this is because I am still a translator providing my transaltion service as much as I do prior to taking the teaching position. For your information, teaching Chinese is a booming business in the United States. Many translators here are taking teaching Chinese language as a part time job. Teaching and translating Chinese are not really controdictary to each other, but complementing each other. If you can explain clear how a correct Chinese sentence or expression should be used, it requires the person who has superb skills and knowledge in languages and translation. By the way, the moderators cannot revise the content of anyone's post in the forum and KudoZ area. We only can edit the inappropriate title of a post. Yes, we can vet or hide a post, if we believe it is not in compliance with the rules or policies. If everyone is doing his or her own part, there would be no need for a moderator to do anything. As for the Chinese localization project of the site, it is an on-going project for volunteers only. If anyone does not agree with such practice, just stay out the project and no one would expect you to do anything with it. It is really a subject that is too old to pick up.
I think everyone had a chance to vent what was in his or her chest. From each one's post, we have a more clear picture about this matter and where each one stands. Let's all agree that this discussion is ended here. Thank you for your understanding and effort to make this site and forum a work place for professional translators!
Kevin
[修改时间: 2009-06-29 06:39 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | redred
China
Local time: 20:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
chance wrote:
我觉得Wenjer的缺点和优点同样突出，我并不完全同意他的一些做法，但他还是属于可以与之探讨的人，不至于逆我者亡。
如此欣赏，并经论坛上多年的了解和磨合，大家也都看到你们有诸多贴子往来和私下的联系，也有收送花的小插曲，不如共结秦晋之好，完全在现实中达成琴瑟和鸣。况且别人的看法仅代表他人观点，又不能阻止双方的交往。
[Edited at 2009-06-29 01:10 GMT]
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Donglai Lou (X)
China
Local time: 20:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
1. 我尊重 Kevin 的呼吁，不再就此问题在此做进一步讨论；
2. 昨日悉尼时间18时左右，我针对当事人的一些来信，做了几点有针对性的公开回复（鉴于当事人有将邮件群发的可能，我认为有公开回复的必要）。由于网站出现技术性问题至今未显示。若此贴于今后出现，请参照本注，并非我另发。我也未有备份，所以暂不打算重新回复或做澄清。
3. 我所阐述的�... See more 1. 我尊重 Kevin 的呼吁，不再就此问题在此做进一步讨论；
2. 昨日悉尼时间18时左右，我针对当事人的一些来信，做了几点有针对性的公开回复（鉴于当事人有将邮件群发的可能，我认为有公开回复的必要）。由于网站出现技术性问题至今未显示。若此贴于今后出现，请参照本注，并非我另发。我也未有备份，所以暂不打算重新回复或做澄清。
3. 我所阐述的情况，仅是从我的角度据我所知进行描述，很多事情我也基本不知（如请愿书）。或许，有些同仁更愿意将我所述之事实解读为“朝廷的正史”，这是您的自由。但我希望你们在看当事人散发的“野史”时，能够有自己的判断。这些事我并非昨天才想写，而是长期以来一直如哽在咽，但碍于Proz的规定和怕Kevin难做，迟迟未写。一吐为快的目的并非要斗臭斗烂某人（可能间接效果），而是想让一些善良者对他有一个真实的了解。想必想要知道此事过程的人，都在这两天内看到或收到过这些贴子。如Kevin认为有必要，请将我的贴一一删去。麻烦了。
4. 老孙，我理解您这“树欲静而风不止”的意思。何尝不是呢？被禁以来，无论这里是否有关于他的讨论，他偶尔会群发并抄送我一些信件来诋毁这个网站，这里的管理员们。可见，其活动从未真正停止过。然而，除当事人的煽动外，我们也有做得不妥，甚至不对的地方，这样才会导致有一些善良者因未能全豹真相，才会为他请愿，为他说话。我们也需要自省。这仅是我的观点，供您参考。 ▲ Collapse
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 07:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
Donglai Lou wrote:
4. 老孙，我理解您这“树欲静而风不止”的意思。何尝不是呢？被禁以来，无论这里是否有关于他的讨论，他偶尔会群发并抄送我一些信件来诋毁这个网站，这里的管理员们。可见，其活动从未真正停止过。然而，除当事人的煽动外，我们也有做得不妥，甚至不对的地方，这样才会导致有一些善良者因未能全豹真相，才会为他请愿，为他说话。我们也需要自省。这仅是我的观点，供您参考。
Donglai,
我充分尊重Kevin 和你的呼吁，不再就该问题发表意见，仅就你这一点简单答复两句。其实，我一直认为，在此公开讨论 management 的任何决定都是不妥的。再说，你说话比我管用得多。我甚至没想到会有幸看到这部“正史”。我说十句也不如你一句管用。同样一句话，你说与我说就大不一样。我何必再说？
我知道某些善良者只看到美好的一面，但没看到丑恶的一面，所以我才觉得有必要提供一些参考意见。另外，给我提供信息者确实有所顾虑。我相信这种顾虑具有代表性。将心比心，我对这样的善良者还是很理解的。你也许看得出，我这两天对不同的人说话还是有所区别的。
我承认我自身有不少缺点。虽然我从不放第一枪，但有时一被迫反击就有点收不住。这大概与风雪山神庙的林冲类似，请你理解和谅解。不过，我还是很注意不超越界线，尽量不授人以柄，有时也会打几个擦边球。所以某些攻击者就认为裁判有偏向。我衷心接受你的意见。今后我会更加注意，以免给管理人员带来不必要麻烦。谢谢！
| | | | Donglai Lou (X)
China
Local time: 20:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
ysun wrote:
我充分尊重Kevin 和你的呼吁。
老孙，
谢谢您的谅解和支持。谢谢。
[Edited at 2009-06-29 02:38 GMT]
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| 我也是当事人之一，也来说两句 | Jun 29, 2009 |
Donglai Lou wrote:
1. 您是否同意人经常性地与他人争论呢？
2. 您是否同意您的好友拿着您的隐私要挟您呢？拿您写给他，安慰他的信到处转发呢？
3. 您是否同意为已私利，颠倒黑白，指鹿为马呢？
4. 您是否同意有人因您与他不和而去您的雇主处说三道四呢？
....
上面Donglai提出的几个问题我完全同意，另外加几点自己的想法。我与文哲也有一些交往，对他的看法开始很好，慢慢转变的，直到今天也没有坏到哪里去，每个人都不一样，我们没有权利、也没有必要要求别人和自己想法一样。
1. 一再谈论政治
一开始，我难以接受他的台独理念，对他经常发表的台独的内容以及对大陆（他叫中国）的一些冷嘲热讽和诋毁有些不习惯，有时候也跟个帖，后来慢慢想开了，觉得他来自台湾，有他那样的观点也正常，慢慢就不介意了，比如美国有不少家庭夫妻分别属于民主党和共和党，党派观点不同，夫妻还是夫妻，而不是仇人。网友也好，朋友也好，政治观点也没有必要一致，互相尊重对方的看法就行了。谈台独方面的事情我自认为大家都还是比较客气的，毕竟国家大事不是我们老百姓管得了的，或者可以说和我么老百姓没有什么关系，谈谈可以，辩论也可以，但是没有必要伤感情。但是反复在论坛上谈台独问题以及诋毁大陆，是明显在谈政治，违背了论坛的一条重要规则。
2. 反复重复相同内容的帖子
第二点是他在论坛上经常打谈如何开拓市场，如Donglai说的，谈了上百遍，当谈只是个比喻，可能上百遍都不止，虽然他说的在我看来都是一些脑袋长在脖子上的最浅显的道理，开始的时候我也很赞成，因为可以让新来者了解情况，尤其是国内的翻译市场不太规范，国外也不规范，只是好一点。让新来者了解国际市场的行情对很多网友是有帮助的。但是他在这里的几年，一直就是在重复老一套，而且长的不得了，再好的东西说个几十遍、上百遍别人看着也受不了，也是浪费网络资源。
3. 有利用论坛做广告之嫌
文哲是个聪明人，不会一无所获地花时间连篇累牍地老谈论一个东西，而且他不是一字不差地复制，就更费时间，不过内容完全一样。他的做法当然是在网站上发表一些在谁看来都是正确的做法，以此来吸引客户。但是这也是所有论坛的大忌。
4. 公布网友隐私
我和文哲从来没有什么私人过节，不知道后来他为什么要公布我的隐私，而且是我跟另一位网友以前在电话上聊天谈到过的。他在一个贴子上说，一个人离过三次婚就不怎么样了。我回贴说，我就是离过三次婚，他简复故作不知，说李兄也离过三次？后来那句话他修改了三四次。当时觉得太无聊，而且文哲自己在论坛上也公开说过他找小姐的经历。当时没有做任何解释，想着自己问心无愧就可以了，33岁结婚，婚前从来没有碰过任何女孩，结婚三次总共也有差不多20年，从来想都没有想到要去婚外搞点什么，每次认识下一个都是在和前一个离婚一年多或半年多以后的事。作为一个男人，这方面我想我不输别人，尤其是看到国内的现状。以前多次放弃走官场的道路，就是为了保持内心的安宁，为了在照镜子的时候不会对看到的人说，“你这个卑鄙无耻的家伙。”保持身心的清白和安宁是我终身努力的目标，虽然能做到怎样还不敢说。
以上四点都是违反论坛规则的，加上Donglai列出的，网站对文哲的处理可以说并没有委屈他，而且是一再宽容了。为什么不能好好在这里和别人友好地交流呢？为什么要一而再、再而三地挑战论坛的规则呢？本来以为都过去了，不用再谈了，这次大家又提出来，贴出来算是对Donglai所列出几点内容的补充，也让一些不知内情的人了解一些实际情况。后来我和乐音交过关于文哲的Support Ticket，具体事情的经过已经不记得，我们过后很快在论坛上公开说我们交了那个ticket。而且只是我们两个当时都在发帖和文哲对话的当事人，没有串联局外人，正如乐音所说，我们搞的是阳谋。
[Edited at 2009-06-29 06:19 GMT]
| | | | Angeline PhD
China
Local time: 20:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
周末两天都和宝宝一起，没有关注forum，没想到这一thread会如此疯长。
既然Kevin已经叫停，但作为事情的起因，我还是希望在这里在说明几句，以免被人认为有人在背后指使，或者说从“被建议者”到“善良的被误导者”这一戏剧性变化，让我深感莫名。
Kevin，请谅解，相信你作为moderator，应该看到，我说这些并不是为了无风起浪。
首先感谢ysun对我的建议，... See more 周末两天都和宝宝一起，没有关注forum，没想到这一thread会如此疯长。
既然Kevin已经叫停，但作为事情的起因，我还是希望在这里在说明几句，以免被人认为有人在背后指使，或者说从“被建议者”到“善良的被误导者”这一戏剧性变化，让我深感莫名。
Kevin，请谅解，相信你作为moderator，应该看到，我说这些并不是为了无风起浪。
首先感谢ysun对我的建议，“好好发展自己的事业，享受家庭的乐趣”，我也一直是这么做的。
很抱歉，如果有人想给我扣顶“受人指使”的大帽子，请向后转。
我几乎一直在这里保持隐身，因为我家宝宝在去年6月出生（谢谢Steve的问候，宝宝很好，已经摇摇晃晃自己走路了）。就像ysun说的，我不曾参与到这里的是是非非中来，但这不表示我没有关注这里，或者说认为proz不关我事，可以高高挂起。我来这里，是因为我希望在这里认识更多比我更强的人。
对于Wenjer，自从我认识他以后，虽然我和他会因政见不同，或者对一些生活中的事情看法不同而在线上争论不休，但彼此之间的尊重从来如一。所以，在拿到请愿书，我仔细看过之后，做了签名。
我在上海组织两次powwow（2007年和2009年），都是选wenjer来上海的时候，因为我一直觉得他会给参加的译者一些正确的看法与做法。他的政见，他的一些我不认同的作法，都不影响他给我和别的译者好的意见和建议。
我想我在上一post中对Kevin写的那些话里面，已经说到一些。大家到这里来的目的是什么，是希望学到有益的东东。一个人是否对forum有益，看他对forum的贡献就知道。是的，功过不能相抵，但谁人无过？自己都不是完人，我们怎么能要求别人是完人？怎么能要求别人都是功，而不能有过呢？对于一个newcomer来说，他会津津有味地站旁边看口水战吗？他会找那些对他开拓市场有用的东东，才是正道。
既然说到了鲁迅先生的“fair play”，那就再说说他的另外一句名言，“痛打落水狗”。遇到真正的你死我活的斗争中，“痛打落水狗”是不得不采取的策略。事实是，无论政见，或者学术，再或者forum中的论战，没有哪一方敢说自己“绝对正确”。更多的情况是，大家互有对错，可能某一方对的多一些，既然如此，你又有什么资格痛打落水狗？
伏尔泰说过：“我坚决反对你的观点，但我誓死捍卫你说话的权利。”比较起来“痛打落水狗”显得太自私狭隘了。
无论别人说我怎么so sensitive，怎么误导。作为成年人，我有自己的价值观和世界观，别人一样有。
Ending！
[Edited at 2009-06-29 05:18 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Kevin Yang
Local time: 05:13
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I decided to lock up this thread. | Jun 29, 2009 |
Hello, All
It does not look like this discussion will go anywhere, except bringing up the bitterness. It really does not worth everyone's time. It is not important anymore in terms of who did what or who said what. The decision of the management was made many months ago and it was final. This site or forum has to be running as directed by its rules and policies. If anyone has good suggestions to improve the site, please file support ticket and get in touch with the management direct... See more Hello, All
It does not look like this discussion will go anywhere, except bringing up the bitterness. It really does not worth everyone's time. It is not important anymore in terms of who did what or who said what. The decision of the management was made many months ago and it was final. This site or forum has to be running as directed by its rules and policies. If anyone has good suggestions to improve the site, please file support ticket and get in touch with the management directly. Our focus is discussing translation-related subjects, nothing else. Let's all make adjustment and go on with life, and enjoy what we have. For this reason, I decided to lock up this thread, and also hid the last few messages posted here.
Kevin
[修改时间: 2009-06-29 06:43 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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