| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Kudoz strategies Thread poster: Phil Hand
|
|---|
Phil Hand 
China
Local time: 15:55
Chinese to English
Part 1: Rant and whine
I hate it when I give Kudoz answers that are clearly right and the asker picks another answer. I mean, sometimes my answer is only one of several right options, and that's fine. But often the other answers are laughably bad, and they still get picked. I am *desperate* to help improve general standards of translation in my pair. But it's hard when you give clear help and people won't accept it.
(I should say, though, that the Kudoz situation in my pair se... See more Part 1: Rant and whine
I hate it when I give Kudoz answers that are clearly right and the asker picks another answer. I mean, sometimes my answer is only one of several right options, and that's fine. But often the other answers are laughably bad, and they still get picked. I am *desperate* to help improve general standards of translation in my pair. But it's hard when you give clear help and people won't accept it.
(I should say, though, that the Kudoz situation in my pair seems to have improved greatly over the last few years. It's not great, but it's much better than it used to be, with a number of really smart people contributing to the answers and discussions.)
Part 2: Solutions?
So has anyone noticed any patterns in what kinds of answers are likely to get you picked? Do links help? Or is it better to copy all the relevant information into the answer box? Is it dictionary links that carry the day? Bilingual dictionaries? Images? Is it agrees? I'm sure I could round up a posse of agreers (agreeers?) if necessary... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 13:25
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Have noticed this in my pair (English-Hindi), too... | Sep 1, 2014 |
...and in my case the reason for the wrong-answers being picked is not due to any deficiency in the correct answers themselves, but due to extraneous reasons, some which are these:
- The asker's competency in Hindi is so poor that he is incapable of picking the correct answer even when it stares him/her in the face.
- The very purpose of asking was not to get a correct answer, but to garner kudoz points; often a pair of people team up, one asking and the other answering... See more ...and in my case the reason for the wrong-answers being picked is not due to any deficiency in the correct answers themselves, but due to extraneous reasons, some which are these:
- The asker's competency in Hindi is so poor that he is incapable of picking the correct answer even when it stares him/her in the face.
- The very purpose of asking was not to get a correct answer, but to garner kudoz points; often a pair of people team up, one asking and the other answering, and the asker just picks up his partner's answer irrespective how many agrees other answers have or however incorrect or ridiculous the picked-up answer is.
I can recall a ludicrous case in which a question was asked for a correct adjective to be used for Buddha, the apostle of non-violence, and the answer picked up was "Lion of Asia"! There were of course several better answers available, yet the asker picked up this one.
There was a lively discussion on his controversial choice in the discussion section of the question, but of course it made no impact on the asker, because clearly the asker-answer duo had already decided whose answer was going to be picked.
In such cases, rational strategies (such as giving well-researched, detailed answers with links, photos, references, etc.), hwon't work at all, and this is a fatal flaw in the kudoz system itself, which is near impossible to rectify.
As long as kudoz is used to rank translators, the incentive to cook the system will be great and we will get cynical efforts like this. The sad part is, it reduces the effectiveness of a well-meaning system. ▲ Collapse
| | | | mag013
Local time: 17:55
Italian to English
+ ...
with bioscience questions in English to Italian. I think it's a case of people being out of their depth in different domains but also, in many instances, choosing the answers of friends who they're more comfortable with.
In one memorable case, I had given a link to the exact translation but the other answer, without any evidence or links, was chosen despite the other answerer admitting my answer was the correct one!
[Edited at 2014-09-01 05:32 GMT]
| | | | | Competency lack. | Sep 1, 2014 |
It's also the matter of domain competency lack, to say it gently. I remember this problem in times of paper dictionaries, even the illustrated ones. People just can't select the right answer, because they're simply profanes in the domain. I remember the case when a person selected synonyms which sounded 'better'... 
It's inevitable, but keeps constant, because of newcomers, though curable with time passed.
| | |
|
|
|
Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:55
French to English
+ ...
| Reasons can be complex | Sep 1, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Part 2: Solutions?
So has anyone noticed any patterns in what kinds of answers are likely to get you picked? Do links help? Or is it better to copy all the relevant information into the answer box? Is it dictionary links that carry the day? Bilingual dictionaries? Images? Is it agrees? I'm sure I could round up a posse of agreers (agreeers?) if necessary...
I think you'll find that in some cases it's a complex combination of things. I'm sure that sometimes, just as in other walks of life, people can get lured by answers with a sense of "referenciness" irrespective of the actual worth of the references in question.
But, giving people the benefit of the doubt, I think part of the problem is that the system is a very blunt instrument. The poster is forced to choose *one* answer that "helped them the most". Sometimes it is really difficult to come down in favour of one single poster. And sometimes, quite legitimately, the post that provided the most help overall may not actually arrive at the "right" answer.
| | | | DLyons
Ireland
Local time: 08:55
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Improve general standards of translation = Augean stables. | Sep 1, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
I hate it when I give Kudoz answers that are clearly right and the asker picks another answer. I mean, sometimes my answer is only one of several right options, and that's fine. But often the other answers are laughably bad, and they still get picked. I am *desperate* to help improve general standards of translation in my pair. But it's hard when you give clear help and people won't accept it.
This has come up before see e.g.
https://www.google.ie/search?num=100&lr=&safe=images&as_qdr=all&q="the+wrong+answer"+site%3AProz.com
On sees cases where several correct answers to a question are given, but the single incorrect one is selected for no apparent reason other than cluelessness. Personally, I give an agree to all the right answers, a disagree to the selected one, and a note saying that this Glossary entry is incorrect. I then filter the asker and sometimes add a separate note to that effect (which typically gets deleted by site staff) but at least the asker is made aware that their actions have some infinitesimally small consequences.
There is a significant cohort of people on ProZ who are not only not professionals, but who are so bad as not even to be amateurs - these are beyond help, fortunately most of them don't last very long. Their standards can't be raised, just note their errors and wait for them to go away. Anything else is, pardon the French, pissing in the wind.
Some language pairs have obvious cliques and there is nothing to be done about that either - the asker is entitled to choose any answer they want.
It's possible to bring any of these matters to the Moderators but I suspect there isn't much they can do. Personally, I just filter and move on; my only concern is that there's some limit to the number of people who can be filtered
| | | | | No problem at all: | Sep 1, 2014 |
The more wrong answers go into the asker´s process, the higher the possibility he/she disappears from the market, mostly together with the cheap price he/she offers to gain the job (mainly technical / engineering subjects, because "it is just changing words"). And aren´t we all pested by the low prices like we can see in so many contributes in this forum?
And I strongly agree with the statement of our colleague from India: Often the asker (especially in my second language combination) se... See more The more wrong answers go into the asker´s process, the higher the possibility he/she disappears from the market, mostly together with the cheap price he/she offers to gain the job (mainly technical / engineering subjects, because "it is just changing words"). And aren´t we all pested by the low prices like we can see in so many contributes in this forum?
And I strongly agree with the statement of our colleague from India: Often the asker (especially in my second language combination) seems to choose the answer from / or at least assigns the points to a person he/she seems to know / like.
[Bearbeitet am 2014-09-01 06:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 08:55
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| No easy solution, IMO | Sep 1, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
has anyone noticed any patterns in what kinds of answers are likely to get you picked? Do links help? Or is it better to copy all the relevant information into the answer box? Is it dictionary links that carry the day? Bilingual dictionaries? Images? Is it agrees? I'm sure I could round up a posse of agreers (agreeers?) if necessary...
But I'm sure copying relevant passages from references into the body of the answer, along with the link, must be better than just posting the link. You have to follow a link to see whether it has any worth, whereas if the evidence is staring you in the face...
But I'm sure there are some cases where nothing will help.
| | |
|
|
|
jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 03:55
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I think in most cases the askers selected a wrong answer by ignorance | Sep 1, 2014 |
Some less experienced linguists just don't understand the source text, no matter how hard you have explained it to them or how many people have explained it to them. They just selected the answers that "sounded" the best, or that were the most fluent. Actually the most fluent answers or the answers with explanations that "made best sense" could be totally wrong, or sometimes just in the direct opposite of what the author was trying to say.
Some other askers just like particular answ... See more Some less experienced linguists just don't understand the source text, no matter how hard you have explained it to them or how many people have explained it to them. They just selected the answers that "sounded" the best, or that were the most fluent. Actually the most fluent answers or the answers with explanations that "made best sense" could be totally wrong, or sometimes just in the direct opposite of what the author was trying to say.
Some other askers just like particular answerers so they tended to select their answers, which are sometimes incorrect.
If you want to participate, you have to bear with it. No one can do anything about it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Yes--this is the problem that no one | Sep 1, 2014 |
knows anymore what is right (in terms of language and translation), not just on Kudoz but many agencies as well, as they are desperately trying to do back translations--which is really not the best method to check translation, plus it is both time and money consuming--totally unnecessary, if you understand the source and the target language well.
Also, favoritism plays a role at times--on Kudoz, or some personal hostilities--not all the time, but at least sometimes. I personally ... See more knows anymore what is right (in terms of language and translation), not just on Kudoz but many agencies as well, as they are desperately trying to do back translations--which is really not the best method to check translation, plus it is both time and money consuming--totally unnecessary, if you understand the source and the target language well.
Also, favoritism plays a role at times--on Kudoz, or some personal hostilities--not all the time, but at least sometimes. I personally have nothing to complain about--but I have seen it.
[Edited at 2014-09-01 07:58 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | |
it’s frustrating and discouraging but I have learned over the years to be philosophical about it...
It’s, however, a pity that the glossary is marred by obvious errors!
| | | | EvaVer (X)
Local time: 09:55
Czech to French
+ ...
| You did your best to help, | Sep 1, 2014 |
if somebody is stupid, it's their problem, isn't it? Yes, pity about the glossary. But does anybody use it?
If you are worried about your points, I will just say that Kudoz is a tool to help people, not a competititon!
| | |
|
|
|
| Keep giving the good explanations | Sep 1, 2014 |
I know I am somewhat naive, but I console myself with the fact that the good answers and explanations are THERE, even if they do not always get the points they deserve.
Anyone who knows how KudoZ works - if they want a serious answer - will look at all the answers offered, not just the one selected.
People have suggested on numeorus occasions that ranking should be by the percentage of answers accepted out of answers given, so that people who give comparatively few, but... See more I know I am somewhat naive, but I console myself with the fact that the good answers and explanations are THERE, even if they do not always get the points they deserve.
Anyone who knows how KudoZ works - if they want a serious answer - will look at all the answers offered, not just the one selected.
People have suggested on numeorus occasions that ranking should be by the percentage of answers accepted out of answers given, so that people who give comparatively few, but spot-on answers would rank high. Unfortunately you cannot check other people's percentages, only your own. (Stats on your profile under KudoZ)
Point grabbers who shoot at everything that moves would have to give a large proportion of quality answers to achieve the same ratio of accepted answers, and it might also improve the general quality.
This still assumes that the majority of askers can select the right answers, and apart from that, it does not look as if there are going to be changes in the system.
It is heartening to know that things are moving in the right direction in some language pairs at least. Being visible works both ways - cooking the system and revealing one's ignorance strikes me as a strategy that would not fool serious clients and colleagues for long!
I notice people who add useful comments in the discussion field and well backed up answers, even if they are not leaders in the points tables, and I know who I would recommend to clients or collaborate with... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Comment on Christine's post | Sep 1, 2014 |
With regard to changing the system so that ranking is determined by the percentage of answers accepted, I feel that this would be unfair to people who spend a good deal of time researching terms in order to help other translators.
Consider the situation whereby someone posts a suggestion, but with a low confidence level. Shortly afterwards, somebody else posts exactly the same suggestion, but with a higher confidence level, and whose answer is, therefore higher up the list of sugges... See more With regard to changing the system so that ranking is determined by the percentage of answers accepted, I feel that this would be unfair to people who spend a good deal of time researching terms in order to help other translators.
Consider the situation whereby someone posts a suggestion, but with a low confidence level. Shortly afterwards, somebody else posts exactly the same suggestion, but with a higher confidence level, and whose answer is, therefore higher up the list of suggestions. This person receives the points.
Then there are many occasions when a person makes a suggestion that is correct, and is a good answer. Someone else comes along and tweaks it slightly; their answer is given preference and they receive the points. Surely it would be wrong to suggest that the other person who also made a good suggestion, should be penalised in the rankings, due to being unlucky that their good answer wasn't chosen.
This new system you advocate would also discourage people from making suggestions, which would surely result in fewer options for the asker to choose from. If I ask a question on kudoz, I want as many suggestions as possible. Even if I don't choose any of them, they may sometimes prompt me to come up with a different solution myself. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The best answer selected! | Sep 1, 2014 |
Matthias Brombach wrote:
The more wrong answers go into the asker´s process, the higher the possibility he/she disappears from the market, mostly together with the cheap price he/she offers to gain the job (mainly technical / engineering subjects, because "it is just changing words"). And aren´t we all pested by the low prices like we can see in so many contributes in this forum?
And I strongly agree with the statement of our colleague from India: Often the asker (especially in my second language combination) seems to choose the answer from / or at least assigns the points to a person he/she seems to know / like.
[Bearbeitet am 2014-09-01 06:10 GMT]
If I were the asker, sure... 
| | | | | Pages in topic: [1 2] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Kudoz strategies | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
More info » |
| | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer.
Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools.
Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free
Buy now! » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
