| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Advice requested on rates for larger projects Thread poster: NvPoe
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Neil Coffey 
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:20
French to English
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| Depends on the nature of the project | Nov 28, 2014 |
NvPoe wrote:
I know the rate depends on a lot of factors, but I'd be happy to receive any advice about price ranges for larger projects.
There are two schools of thought:
(1) A longer project involves on average less work per word, because there is an economy of scale on terminology research, some repetition of material etc.
(2) A longer project involves on average more work per word, because there is more work required to ensure consistency across the entire project.
Which of these factors turns out to be prevalent depends on the particular text in question.
So I would look at it more in terms of how many words/day do you estimate that you can *finalise* (so, including checking through, revising terminology) for that project and work backwards from there.
For me, I would concord with others that 15,000 words would fall into the "bog standard project length" range -- so it's more that I'd NOT be adding on a "short project surplus" than the other way round.
| | | | | Agree with Frankie | Nov 29, 2014 |
I see things like Frankie does. A large project can be much less work then several little projects in different fields. But I think Neil is right as well, consistency is also a point to consider.
| | | | | Large projects... | Nov 29, 2014 |
... mean that you have to show away any other (and possibly more lucrative) business in the meantime. You want my full attention? That costs. On top of that, it is more demanding to maintain consistency and terminology within large projects.
That being said, 15,000 words is hardly "large."
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 11:20
Member (2007)
English
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| Be careful WHEN you offer it | Nov 29, 2014 |
If you're going to offer a volume discount (and I wouldn't personally), then you should be very careful about the timing. It isn't unknown for unscrupulous clients to promise large volumes, negotiate a discount on that basis, and then the job fizzles out after a few thousand words, leaving the translator to earn a low rate he or she would never have agreed to. Circumstances beyond their control can also cause the same outcome even when clients are well-intentioned.
I would advise... See more If you're going to offer a volume discount (and I wouldn't personally), then you should be very careful about the timing. It isn't unknown for unscrupulous clients to promise large volumes, negotiate a discount on that basis, and then the job fizzles out after a few thousand words, leaving the translator to earn a low rate he or she would never have agreed to. Circumstances beyond their control can also cause the same outcome even when clients are well-intentioned.
I would advise
a) make sure you have the total volume in front of you,
and/or
b) offer the discount only from the nth word e.g. the discounted rate applies only from word 20,001.
Although I wouldn't normally entertain a volume discount, I can see there might be an exception, e.g. where I really wanted to do a fascinating job and this was the way to secure it. In that case, I would personally only go as far as (b), whether or not (a) was possible. You can make the total for the job the same as giving a discount on every word, so the client should be as happy. But you also cover yourself in the event of cancellation or reduction in volume.
Finally, be very clear what the discount applies to. It shouldn't be for every word that the client ever comes up with in the future; it should be for a discrete piece of work, in one subject area. ▲ Collapse
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 18:20
Chinese to English
| I'm in the "large projects cost more" camp | Nov 29, 2014 |
It varies, of course, but in my recent large projects I have found that the difficulty of maintaining quality over a large volume of text far exceeds any gains from reduced paperwork. But like others, I don't see 15,000 words as a large project. Large for me would be... 30k+? 50k+?
| | | | | Some special cases | Nov 29, 2014 |
I'd like to add here, for everybody's benefit (?) two special cases where I give discounts.
First of all, my house policy: I NEVER grant any discount on CAT tool fuzzy matches.
If a segment is not a 100% match, full rate applies.
Now the special cases...
My #1 specialty in translation is HRD training courseware.
This often comprises, at least: a) Instructor/Leader/Facilitator Guide/Manual; b) Participants' workbooks & course handouts; c) ... See more I'd like to add here, for everybody's benefit (?) two special cases where I give discounts.
First of all, my house policy: I NEVER grant any discount on CAT tool fuzzy matches.
If a segment is not a 100% match, full rate applies.
Now the special cases...
My #1 specialty in translation is HRD training courseware.
This often comprises, at least: a) Instructor/Leader/Facilitator Guide/Manual; b) Participants' workbooks & course handouts; c) PPT or PDF presentations.
Segments' consistency throughout all these publications is an absolute must. If the workbook shows "Managing Time", the PPT uses "Time Administration", and the instructor (using the guide) says "Time Management", this will be devastating on trainees' retention, to give a clear picture here.
So, in pre-CAT tool days, I did a lot of cross-checking (with printouts, in the Apple II and PC DOS era), and later a lot of copy&paste (from the Windows 3.0 days onwards), to ensure this consistency. Since CAT tools came up, all this has been automated.
Then clients had to find ways to cut costs. They realized that most of what was found in workbooks and presentations was replicated in the instructor's guide. So their way of cutting costs was to hire me to translate that guide alone. Then they'd get a sesquilingual staff member of theirs to copy & paste my translations to the other materials.
Of course, not 100% of the segments in workbooks and presentations were found in the instructor's guide. This forced that keen employee to take a stab at translating, or to use outright free online machine translation.
Such inevitable "punctures" in the translated material often lead to general contempt for the translation as a whole. Who translated that? On the record, I did. That brave sesquilingual contribution would not come to their minds, because such person was on their payroll anyway, they wouldn't see a bill to their name anywhere.
Before such events could damage my professional translator image, I began offering repeated segments for FREE in all jobs over 5,000 words. Actually this increased my bill (compared to translating the instructor's guide alone), because I'd have to translate all those segments otherwise processed via MT. However it also saved the client money, because they could use that employee - who was getting a salary anyway - to do other work instead.
The second case is when authors want me to translate their books, but they are in no particular rush. I estimate how many weeks it would take me to translate that at my normal rates. If they accept to grant me that same number of months to do it instead, I'll lower my price by 30%. This will allow me to work on their books in my otherwise "idle" time, e.g. waiting for translations to be proofread, between projects, etc.
In the case presented by the OP here, yes, I would give a 30% discount to have one month to translate something that would normally take me a week. This would leave me plenty of "prime time" to sell at my normal rate.
Sheer volume discounts? No. I'm not running a printing press, nor a plastic injection machine, where additional volume simply means waiting a little longer before pressing the STOP button. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The same rate. | Nov 29, 2014 |
15,000 is not a large volume project You can give the client a slight discount--like 5% on a 200,000 word project. Also, never accept too tight deadlines--it will always turn against you, in the end. At least extra 24 hours, on projects, up to 15, 000 words. Doubl rate for rush jobs but I would really advice you against taking any rush jobs.
[Edited at 2014-11-29 19:01 GMT]
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What is a big project?
Some consider big projects as having more than 15 000 words, others more than 20 000 or 30 000. Lilian even talks about more than 200 000 words.
Well I think this might frustrate translators who are just beginning with translation or who work in fields where projects most often have less than 10 000 words!
Personally I work a lot in journalism and translate articles or press releases. The projects start from a few hundred words on, ex... See more What is a big project?
Some consider big projects as having more than 15 000 words, others more than 20 000 or 30 000. Lilian even talks about more than 200 000 words.
Well I think this might frustrate translators who are just beginning with translation or who work in fields where projects most often have less than 10 000 words!
Personally I work a lot in journalism and translate articles or press releases. The projects start from a few hundred words on, except if you have to do a whole magazine!
The translators I personally know rarely have projects that exceed 10 000 words. If they are lucky to get one they celebrate it!
[Modifié le 2014-11-29 19:14 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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deleted. (X)
Australia
Local time: 07:20
English to Chinese
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| End of financial year argument | Nov 30, 2014 |
I don't know if this has happened to some translators yet:
You are towards the end of a financial year, the volume of translation you have completed so far has put you in a comfortable tax bracket. If you work a bit more, you will reach the next bracket and be taxed at a higher rate. So you probably do not want to give discounts, in fact, you may not want to accept work unless the guy pays you an obscene amount.
| | | | | Any sensible tax system... | Nov 30, 2014 |
he-li wrote:
I don't know if this has happened to some translators yet:
You are towards the end of a financial year, the volume of translation you have completed so far has put you in a comfortable tax bracket. If you work a bit more, you will reach the next bracket and be taxed at a higher rate. So you probably do not want to give discounts, in fact, you may not want to accept work unless the guy pays you an obscene amount.
In any sensible tax system, the increasing tax percentages will apply to income ranges, NOT to the entire income.
Take the Brazilian individual income tax system for instance, yearly figures for 2014:
(we use comma for decimals, periods for 000s)
Taxable income (R$) |/| Tax |/| Deductible (R$)
Under 21.453,24 |/| Exempt |/| 0,00
From 21.453,25 to 32.151,48 |/| 7,5% |/| 1.608,99
From 32.151,49 to 42.869,16 |/| 15% |/| 4.020,35
From 42.869,17 to 53.565,72 |/| 22,5% |/| 7.235,54
Above 53.565,72 |/| 27,5% |/| 9.913,83
The key here is that you pay the specified rates on the corresponding income brackets. That's where the deductibles comes from.
If you calculate it, 7.5% of the exemption bracket limit is exactly R$ 1,608.99.
(all the deductibles take into account each bracket at its own rate)
So someone having a taxable income of R$ 22,000.00 will have to pay:
22,000 x 7.5% - 1,608.99 = R$ 41.01
... and not R$ 1,650.00 in income tax as you seem to think.
Say your yearly income in Brazil is R$ 53,500.00.
Your income tax due would be:
53,500 x 22.5% - 7,235.54 = R$ 4,801.96
If an additional R$ 200 job led your income to R$ 53.700.00,
your income tax due would be:
53,700 x 27.5% - 9,913.83 = R$ 4,853.67.
Anything else would not make sense, employees would shun salary increases, if these led them through income bracket thresholds.
| | | | deleted. (X)
Australia
Local time: 07:20
English to Chinese
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| 37c per dollar in tax | Nov 30, 2014 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
... and not R$ 1,650.00 in income tax as you seem to think.
Sorry I didn't make myself clear. The progressive tax system is the same in Australia. You are taxed at nil, 19c, and 32.5c for each threshold within the first $80,000, totalling $17,547 in tax for this $80,000.
But then, for each additional dollar that you earn over the $80,000 threshold, you are taxed at 37 cents per dollar. That part would probably make someone pause before deciding to offer discounts.
| | | | | Words don't get cheaper | Nov 30, 2014 |
by the kilo. Next thing you know, clients will be asking for discounts on the word 'the' or 'a' since you only have to translate it once.
(If somebody were to ask that, I would, of course, deliver a translation with 'the' and 'a' translated only once and let the client put in the rest of them him/herself!)
[Edited at 2014-11-30 19:08 GMT]
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| Premium for volume? Inane... | Nov 30, 2014 |
Michal Fabian wrote:
large projects mean that you have to show away any other (and possibly more lucrative) business in the meantime.
Large projects with tight deadlines yes, otherwise not really...
Michal Fabian wrote:
You want my full attention? That costs.
How come? Do you mean that clients who will bother you for a trifle should pay less on average than clients who respect your time and call on you only for serious business? That would mean you penalize clients who keep you busy... which is certainly not an idea of businessman... Granting or not a discount is arguable, but asking for a premium seems completely absurd to me.
| | | | | How to compute a discount | Nov 30, 2014 |
Andrea Halbritter wrote:
What is a big project?
Some consider big projects as having more than 15 000 words, others more than 20 000 or 30 000. Lilian even talks about more than 200 000 words.
Well I think this might frustrate translators who are just beginning with translation or who work in fields where projects most often have less than 10 000 words!
There are many, many scenarios and it's not possible to review them all... IMHO the main difference is: is the client regular or not? Translation being a service and not a commodity, in theory rates should be customized for each client and each project, in which case a discount becomes just a glorified marketing gimmick to have them believe you made an extra effort for them - instead of simply adjusting down your rates without mentioning it...
When the client is regular, an agency for example, most of the time translators have standard rates, and I think in this case the discount should reflect the various economies of scale made, which, as said earlier, is a direct function of working conditions, and more precisely the average job size.
If your rates for an agency are set so as to reflect an average job of 500 words (and the fixed costs related (paperwork, file/software handling, time to dive in the context, etc.)), then if this agency offers you a 50,000-word project, then it wouldn't be ridiculous that the discount amount to 30%. But if your standard rates for this agency are set so as to reflect an average job of 5,000 words with very limited fixed costs, then it would make sense to offer them only 5-10%...
Those examples imply that your rates are indeed customized for each agency and actually factor in all the variables in the working conditions (which seldom happens I think...).
In any case, IMHO, a discount in a service industry should be a reflection of economies of scale made and not a way of "thanking clients for a lot of work" because more work tends to translate into an equally higher amount of efforts for us... (except maybe for "making sense of the context", but it's often offset by extra work on consistency or whatever; and if there are repetitions, well, those are already discounted with the use of CAT tools).
| | | | | I am also in the large project cost more | Dec 1, 2014 |
Like Phil Hand, I now support that large projects would be charged higher. I just finish a large project (> 45k) and it took me lots of time which can't be shown on the PO. As I have to work on it with no established TM, there are many terms that have similar meaning appearing through out the project that I have to read and think deeply about their differences before assign them a meaning to distinguish themselves. The project was split into smaller files so sometimes the term is not clearly mea... See more Like Phil Hand, I now support that large projects would be charged higher. I just finish a large project (> 45k) and it took me lots of time which can't be shown on the PO. As I have to work on it with no established TM, there are many terms that have similar meaning appearing through out the project that I have to read and think deeply about their differences before assign them a meaning to distinguish themselves. The project was split into smaller files so sometimes the term is not clearly meant in a file and later it is defined in details in another. When I had already translated with an A meaning, I had to go back and change them all into B meaning for consistency so large project does take time when we consider such consistent cases and other untold cases.
As for discount, I now tend to negotiate discounts for 100% match or repetition and all the others should be charged at a flat rate of unmatch word. It takes time to read both source and target and fill in changes here and there for the differences, the action of which is often more time consuming than translating from scratch.
15000 word is a mid-range project, not small but not too large in my opinion. However, the subject matter also needs to be taken into account because some fields require more researchs, thinking and grey matter than others. ▲ Collapse
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