| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | A large agency's new pricing structure for translations utilizing CAT tools Thread poster: Robert Forstag
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Cristóbal del Río Faura wrote: Robert Forstag wrote:
My question is whether any of you who use CAT tools (I do not) can earn a viable income through such a pricing structure.
I have been using CAT tools for 20 years, and the answer is yes. The price structure you mentioned is reasonable
I disagree.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker 
United States
Local time: 11:26
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Therein lies the biggest problem... | Feb 28, 2015 |
It shouldn't be about what "they pay", but about what "we charge". Since when did "they" get to dictate what "our" rates are? It seems as though the new generation of translators has capitulated too much and lost sight of the fact that they need to run a business like a business in order to have a career and not just earn pocket money.
In short, agencies shouldn't even dictate a "pricing structure" for translators in the first place, but rather inquire about our prices.
... See more It shouldn't be about what "they pay", but about what "we charge". Since when did "they" get to dictate what "our" rates are? It seems as though the new generation of translators has capitulated too much and lost sight of the fact that they need to run a business like a business in order to have a career and not just earn pocket money.
In short, agencies shouldn't even dictate a "pricing structure" for translators in the first place, but rather inquire about our prices.
The next time I go into a business, I won't bother asking about prices, I'll just tell them what my pricing structure is.
Unfortunately, most new translators don't see themselves or behave like an independent business, but like dependent employees without any of the corresponding employment benefits.
[Edited at 2015-02-28 19:34 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I disagree.
You quote a chunk of my sentence out of its context. That is not very elegant indeed. Do you disagree with the rest of my post as well? Any reasons?
| | | | Mervyn Henderson (X)
Spain
Local time: 17:26
Spanish to English
+ ...
| I'm with Phil | Feb 28, 2015 |
What do they mean by discounts on the TM? THEIR TM? The TM the analysis is based on? The sad TM that has been mangled, mistranslated and misnomered by many, many unaccountable hands in the past, totally unrelated to you? The 100% matches you have to spend ages editing, time and time again?
I can't do it all the time for certain very good customers, but if it's not a repeat for me on an ongoing project/customer TM I created in the first place, I say no thanks. "Hey, it's 100,000 word... See more What do they mean by discounts on the TM? THEIR TM? The TM the analysis is based on? The sad TM that has been mangled, mistranslated and misnomered by many, many unaccountable hands in the past, totally unrelated to you? The 100% matches you have to spend ages editing, time and time again?
I can't do it all the time for certain very good customers, but if it's not a repeat for me on an ongoing project/customer TM I created in the first place, I say no thanks. "Hey, it's 100,000 words, but there are 80,000 words in the TM" - sure there are, but you're paying me for 20,000+ words and for correcting 80,000 words of crud.
Mervyn ▲ Collapse
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Cristóbal del Río Faura wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I disagree.
You quote a chunk of my sentence out of its context. That is not very elegant indeed. Do you disagree with the rest of my post as well? Any reasons?
I don't find the price structure reasonable. I don't work based on that or any other outsourcer's price structure.
| | | | | That is a pity | Feb 28, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I don't work based on that or any other outsourcer's price structure.
This is really a pity. I just planned to ask you if you could do some translations for us.
Project: Marketing texts
Estimated monthly word count: 9000 - 12000 words
Language pair: DE -> EN
I wanted to offer you USD 0.24/source word
BUT as there will be quite some repetitions and similar texts, I wanted to ask you if you could accept the following Trados scheme:
Repetitions: 35 %
100 % Matches: 35 %
95-99 % Matches: 50 %
85-94 % Matches: 75 %
75-84 % Matches: 100 %
50-74 % Matches: 100 %
No Match: 100 %
I think it is ok if you stick to your work ethics, I'll look for somebody else.
| | | | | To accept or not to accept? | Feb 28, 2015 |
Siegfried Armbruster wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I don't work based on that or any other outsourcer's price structure. This is really a pity. I just planned to ask you if you could do some translations for us. Project: Marketing texts Estimated monthly word count: 9000 - 12000 words Language pair: DE -> EN I wanted to offer you USD 0.24/source word BUT as there will be quite some repetitions and similar texts, I wanted to ask you if you could accept the following Trados scheme: Repetitions: 35 % 100 % Matches: 35 % 95-99 % Matches: 50 % 85-94 % Matches: 75 % 75-84 % Matches: 100 % 50-74 % Matches: 100 % No Match: 100 % I think it is ok if you stick to your work ethics, I'll look for somebody else.
You can suggest a price. Preferably a total price. I don't care how you arrive at that price proposal. I will have a look at the document, consider all factors and then suggest my price to you. It might match what you envisioned, it might not. But it will be a price that I feel is fair for what I do. There is much more to price calculation for a language-related service/project than a Trados scheme. And why am I supposed to simply accept your or anybody else's scheme or price proposal? You're saying: either accept this or we 'll find somebody else. That's not how I usually work/roll. Is this hyperbole?
[Edited at 2015-02-28 20:32 GMT]
| | | | | I don't work based on that or any other outsourcer's price structure. | Feb 28, 2015 |
This is what you said, quite clear. I see no reason why I should even start discussing with somebody who clearly says "I don't work based on that or any other outsourcer's price structure".
This only costs me time and time is money. Sorry, in the meantime I found somebody who was able to accept our "budget constraints".
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:26
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| We can't speak for all participants | Feb 28, 2015 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
It seems as though the new generation of translators has capitulated too much and lost sight of the fact that they need to run a business like a business in order to have a career and not just earn pocket money.
Setting aside for now the crucial issue of how little we know about transactions in this industry and how little data there is out there on the composition of market participants, "they" are free to behave any way they like. If all "they" want is pocket money who are we to think we can coerce them into acting differently?
It's a segmented market. Translation services are like cars: there's a price point for everybody. We can't all afford a limousine.
Dan
| | | | | I agree with Bernhard, but ... | Mar 1, 2015 |
I do like to consider each project individually, but I would happily sign up with an agency who proposed that structure as I consider it fair in principle. I suppose agencies need some pricing structures.
But I did a job for a direct client last week (13000 words, 8000 of which 100% matches and for which I charged 30% and a slightly reduced rate for further fuzzy matches). Now the client has a large project and suggested to send smaller files throughout the week, for weeks/months to... See more I do like to consider each project individually, but I would happily sign up with an agency who proposed that structure as I consider it fair in principle. I suppose agencies need some pricing structures.
But I did a job for a direct client last week (13000 words, 8000 of which 100% matches and for which I charged 30% and a slightly reduced rate for further fuzzy matches). Now the client has a large project and suggested to send smaller files throughout the week, for weeks/months to come. We still have to discuss how this project is going to work because I cannot accept the same if she sends lots of small files and I have to spend time opening and analyzing them individually - this takes time. So I may need to suggest a higher price if she wants to work that way. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Blind criticism | Mar 1, 2015 |
Dan Lucas wrote: Jeff Whittaker wrote:
It seems as though the new generation of translators has capitulated too much and lost sight of the fact that they need to run a business like a business in order to have a career and not just earn pocket money. Setting aside for now the crucial issue of how little we know about transactions in this industry and how little data there is out there on the composition of market participants, "they" are free to behave any way they like. If all "they" want is pocket money who are we to think we can coerce them into acting differently?
Both of you seem to assume that any translator who uses a CAT tool and accepts a CAT discount scheme is A) not a good professional (maybe even not a good translator?), B) not a good businessperson, and C) unable to make good money.
After seeing this type of unfounded and blind criticism for two decades, one cannot help wonder what the underlaying problem is here. To me it feels a bit like farmers ploughing their green garden with a mule and who throw rocks at those who plough bigger fields with a tractor. There are different types of farming, and farmers should not throw rocks at each other.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:26
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| On the contrary, I try any tool I can get | Mar 1, 2015 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Both of you seem to assume that any translator who uses a CAT tool and accepts a CAT discount scheme is A) not a good professional (maybe even not a good translator?), B) not a good businessperson, and C) unable to make good money.
I think you misunderstand. I was making the point that, however much Jeff and Bernhard might think it desirable, we have neither the moral right nor the practical authority to control other market participants, such as casual and unqualified translators who accept low rates of pay. We can only control our own attitudes and actions.
As for CAT, far from being an opponent of such tools I find them immensely useful. The simple act of segmentation alone makes translation far easier for me. They're not perfect, of course. For a start I'm distressed by the lack of in-segment editing sophistication compared to a good text editor like Emacs.
Also, despite the hype about translation memories, they seem to me to be far less useful than a good termbase. Maybe that's just because of the very different structure of Japanese or maybe it's because my TM is still too small to give me much leverage. But despite these minor disappointments, for me CAT is still a vital tool.
My philosophy is simple: find good tools, master them, keep plugging away at improving my productivity through automating the tedious parts of the translation process that are amenable to that. Eventually I will be able to translate more characters per given period than most others and that means (in effect) higher hourly rates, which would give me a competitive edge, should I wish to take advantage of it.
Incidentally, that's why CafeTran attracts me. Its developer and users are people who think the same way - they are focused on personal productivity. The concomitant difficulty is a quirky interface and a steep learning curve. So I haven't progressed very far with that particular tool.
However, if translators in other language pairs and in other specialities can make money without the advantages of CAT tools - and I don't doubt that some do, and not only in literary translation - well, more power to them! It's no skin off our nose, is it?
Regards
Dan, on a sunny Sunday morning in Pembrokeshire
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Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 11:26
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Agree with Bernhard and Jeff | Mar 2, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
You can suggest a price. Preferably a total price. I don't care how you arrive at that price proposal. I will have a look at the document, consider all factors and then suggest my price to you. It might match what you envisioned, it might not. But it will be a price that I feel is fair for what I do. There is much more to price calculation for a language-related service/project than a Trados scheme. And why am I supposed to simply accept your or anybody else's scheme or price proposal? You're saying: either accept this or we 'll find somebody else. That's not how I usually work/roll. Is this hyperbole?
[Edited at 2015-02-28 20:32 GMT]
I agree, and among these factors are deadline, difficulty and legibility of text, whether a lot of time-consuming formatting is required, and simply the ease with which I can fit a given project into my own schedule.
I cannot imagine discarding such considerations and simply submitting to some agency's pre-determined price structure.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 11:26
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| The funny thing is that sometimes when | Mar 3, 2015 |
I establish a flat rate price based on my evaluation of the project difficulty, deadline, payment terms (fast payers to the front of the line) and other parameters, it's often lower than the one suggested by the agency after going through complex chains of CAT-tool generated discounts and other machinations. In which case, I gladly acquiesce to their "pricing structure".
| | | | | The funniest thing is | Mar 5, 2015 |
that many of us seem to buy CAT tools in order to give discounts to translation agencies who have been trying hard to drive our rates down. Do they give discounts to their clients? I guess many don't.
Translating is one of the most mentally demanding and time-consuming jobs. Unless repetitions consist of a significant number of words and the rate is good, I wouldn't give discounts.
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