| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Kudoz: Posting both a competing answer and a disagree vote (doesn't feel right) Thread poster: Fred Neild (X)
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| A label may help partially alleviate the problem | Nov 2, 2005 |
Fred Neild wrote:
the website could include automatically some phrase stating the conflict of interests of the individual commenting.
If this were to be implemented, every time a fellow answerer places a disagree vote on a competing answer, an automatic label would appear, indicating that a conflict of interest is involved.
This is comparable to the warning label that currently appears whenever the asker and an answerer have the same IP.
At this point, I only see two difficulties with it:
1. This would work only if the negative comment is included in a disagree vote. If it is included in a neutral vote, the system would not be able to detect it.
2. A voter could place disagree votes before he posts an answer, when the system cannot yet see any conflict. If your suggestion were to be implemented, it would need to be made to work retroactively as well.
In general, I think this practical suggestion has potential.
| | | | Marc P (X) 
Local time: 12:52
German to English
+ ...
Fuad Yahya wrote:
The point I was trying to make is simply that KudoZ, as currently structured, is a competitive game.
Sure.
I do know several people who are far better translators than I'll ever be who enjoy playing KudoZ (though not usually under their own names). I can quite believe that it's good fun. And when I'm searching for a term on the 'net, Google sometimes gives me the KudoZ entry for it without my even looking for it, and I find what I'm looking for (and sometimes, it's the term the asker picked, too ).
But if you want an intelligent discussion of a particular term with some colleagues, the competition element gets in the way, not to mention all the rules. Either you're playing a game, or you're having a professional discussion; it's difficult to do both at once. At least, that's what I found - but don't let me stop you if you're having fun.
May I also add that, according to my reading, the original topic of the thread is not about negative comments in general, but rather about negative comments by competing answerers.
I know. I was just being my usual controversial self.
Marc
| | | | | A temporary solution | Nov 2, 2005 |
Fred Neild wrote: Fuad Yahya wrote:
I sometimes reply "comment by a competing answerer - conflict of interest." .... Maybe this is something the website could do automatically.
Until the site adopts this automatic label (and we don't know that it will), perhaps you can place your own label, as I do.
| | | | | To play or not to play | Nov 2, 2005 |
[quote]MarcPrior wrote:
Fuad Yahya wrote:
Either you're playing a game, or you're having a professional discussion; it's difficult to do both at once.
I agree that it is difficult, but I think it can be made manageable to the point where it is not an either/or situation. I think that healthy discussions about some of the difficulties stemming from the competitive nature of the game can lead to practical suggestions to eliminate the difficulties. Many member suggestions have been implemented towards that end. It is not perfect, and I don't think it can be made perfect, but we can go a long way towards making it a pleasant (and profitable) exercise.
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Fred Neild (X)
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER
Fuad Yahya wrote:
Until the site adopts this automatic label (and we don't know that it will), perhaps you can place your own label, as I do.
I'll probably accept your offer, thanks.
To All:
If Kudoz points are canceled I had nothing to do with it, ok?
I think it is a great 'game'.
| | | | RHELLER
United States
Local time: 04:52
French to English
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| one rule has not been mentioned | Nov 2, 2005 |
5.4 - Encouraging others to agree with your answers or disagree with answers provided by others, is prohibited.
| | | | Rosa Maria Duenas Rios (X)
Local time: 06:52
| Why is it a conflict of interest, to begin with? | Nov 2, 2005 |
Fuad Yahya wrote:
I sometimes reply "comment by a competing answerer - conflict of interest."
Once, I disagreed with an answer. The question was how to end a letter to an ambassador, and someone replied that just "Yours sincerely" was correct. Having worked with diplomatic protocol for several years, I disagreed and indicated that there is a standard set of words for such closings (at least in Spanish and English, which are my working pairs). The person whose answer I disagreed with, challenged what I was saying. Thus, the only way in which I could prove my point was to open an answer box myself, in which I explained in detail the reason for my disagreeing, and provided an Internet reference to a protocol manual that supported what I was saying.
How can this be a conflict of interest? In my opinion, I was just supporting my disagree with a lot more information which cannot be included in the small space we have for comments when we enter a neutral or a disagree.
[Edited at 2005-11-02 17:06]
| | | | | An excellent case to broaden the perspective | Nov 2, 2005 |
Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:
Once, I disagreed with an answer. The question was how to end a letter to an ambassador, and someone replied that just "Yours sincerely" was correct. Having worked with diplomatic protocol for several years, I disagreed and indicated that there is a standard set of words for such closings (at least in Spanish and English, which are my working pairs). The person whose answer I disagreed with, challenged what I was saying. Thus, the only way in which I could prove my point was to open an answer box myself, in which I explained in detail the reason for my disagreeing, and provided an Internet reference to a protocol manual that supported what I was saying.
How can this be a conflict of interest? In my opinion, I was just supporting my disagree with a lot more information which cannot be included in the small space we have for comments when we enter a neutral or a disagree.
[Edited at 2005-11-02 17:06]
Thank you for citing this incident. Nothing helps elucidate a discussion like a real-life example.
The incident you report shows very clearly that a conflict of interest does not necessarily involve bad faith. When you disagreed with the previous answer, you had no intention at first to provide an answer of your own. And when you proceeded to post your own answer, you did not do that in a point-grabbing spirit, but simply to provide as much help as was called for. Your intentions were pure.
That is one reason disagree votes by fellow answerers (or, as in your case, competing answers by disagree voters) are still allowed by the site rules. It would not be right to stop someone form providing additional help to the asker just because they had disagreed with another answer.
But putting aside what is allowed and what is not, I don't think anyone could fail to see the structural conflict. Not every conflict of interest involves bad faith, but when the potential for behavior that spoils the game exists and is taken advantage of by some users, vigilance is wise, and perhaps some measures are in order.
The replies I have given to the disagrees that I have received (which state "disagree by a competing answerer - conflict of interest") were addressed to disagreers who did not necessarily intend harm; they probably just did not think through the issue of conflict. They simply rushed to disagree with every answer they did not like, then they proceeded to provide their own answer. That is not fair competition.
I also think that your excellent example illustrates another point: that posting a competing, fully documented answer is, in most cases, far better than giving a disagree vote to another answer. A competing answer not only affords you more space to get your point across with all citations, but is also a positive contribution to the discussion.
Thank you again for this excellent point you raise.
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| Conflict of interest & disagrees | Nov 2, 2005 |
I'm not convinced by the arguments in favour of having a 4th option.
For one thing, any "conflict of interest" should be apparent from just scanning down the page - you see someone has posted a disagree, more often than not, you'll also see they've posted an alternative answer.
Which IMHO is a good thing.
I get slightly peeved by people posting disagrees & then having nothing positive to say, either by posting their own suggestion OR by agreeing with someone else. The other day... See more I'm not convinced by the arguments in favour of having a 4th option.
For one thing, any "conflict of interest" should be apparent from just scanning down the page - you see someone has posted a disagree, more often than not, you'll also see they've posted an alternative answer.
Which IMHO is a good thing.
I get slightly peeved by people posting disagrees & then having nothing positive to say, either by posting their own suggestion OR by agreeing with someone else. The other day in Fr-Eng, someone posted disagrees to all 5 answers, but no suggestion of their own. I just thought "OK, if you're so clever, what's your suggestion?"
Indeed, if I were to suggest any changes relative to disagrees specifically, it would be that the system does not allow them to be posted unless the person has either agreed with an answer or posted an answer of their own. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Fred Neild (X)
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | Potential and warning | Nov 2, 2005 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
For one thing, any "conflict of interest" should be apparent from just scanning down the page - you see someone has posted a disagree, more often than not, you'll also see they've posted an alternative answer.
As it was mentioned before no one can read minds. The important word mentioned by our colleague is 'potential', and I believe the other keyword is 'warning'. This label is just a warning for the asker, then he can make his own choice.
Charlie Bavington wrote:
The other day in Fr-Eng, someone posted disagrees to all 5 answers, but no suggestion of their own. I just thought "OK, if you're so clever, what's your suggestion?"
I'm afraid you can disagree and not have a suggestion. This is a different issue. I believe that if somebody thinks my answer is wrong but they don't have the solution they can say it. They are getting nothing out of it, so potential for bad faith is reduced.
[Edited at 2005-11-02 18:33]
| | | | | Conflict of interest is a structural fact, not an option to choose | Nov 2, 2005 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I'm not convinced by the arguments in favour of having a 4th option.
Your are right. A conflict of interest simply arises out of the structure of the KudoZ game when a disagree voter posts a competing answer or a competing answerer posts a disagree vote. It would not make sense to make it a fourth option.
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I get slightly peeved by people posting disagrees & then having nothing positive to say, either by posting their own suggestion OR by agreeing with someone else.
This is an excellent point that addresses the issue of disagree votes in general (and whether the disagree vote is ultimately a good idea to have as an option altogether -- but that is a separate issue).
When someone has nothing positive to say, it is best that they say nothing. If they do have a positive contribution, they should present it as an answer. The question is: what happens when a contributor of a competing answer also casts a disagree vote, either before or after posting the competing answer?
One thing we know happens is that the disagree vote automatically lowers the total score of the affected answer. Coming from a competing answerer, that outcome is fairly perceived as a punch below the belt.
Moreover, a negative comment by a competing answerer, even if posted under a neutral label, will have a similar, although not identical, impact.
In short, the conflict of interest is a fact that arises from the very structure of the game. There is not much that could be done about it except to be aware of it when it happens. The presence of the conflict of interest lowers the credibility of the disagree vote and the negative comment. That is why it it helps to point it out. Framing it correctly helps to contain it, to give it no more than its proper size, and thus helps to assuage the nerves that it tends to fray. When it happens to me, I simply point it out as a fact.
| | | | | What`s this fuss about? (II) | Nov 2, 2005 |
Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:
Once, I disagreed with an answer. The question was how to end a letter to an ambassador, and someone replied that just "Yours sincerely" was correct. Having worked with diplomatic protocol for several years, I disagreed and indicated that there is a standard set of words for such closings (at least in Spanish and English, which are my working pairs). The person whose answer I disagreed with, challenged what I was saying. Thus, the only way in which I could prove my point was to open an answer box myself, in which I explained in detail the reason for my disagreeing, and provided an Internet reference to a protocol manual that supported what I was saying.
This is a very good example of what I had said in my prevoius comment about this topic. Disagree/neutral comments may be (and usually are) in good faith, for the sake of the asker and the KOG.
see http://www.proz.com/post/275632#275632
Walter
[Edited at 2005-11-02 19:53]
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Walter Landesman wrote:
What`s this fuss about?
This fuss is about what happens when someone disagrees and answers (or answers and disagrees) at the same time. It is allowed by the site rules but seems to many people to carry an element of unfairness.
Walter Landesman wrote:
Disagree/neutral comments may be (and usually are) in good faith, for the sake of the asker and the KOG.
Indeed they are. Good faith prevails, and is assumed, most of the time. That is integral to the success of KudoZ.
The problem being discussed here does not point to bad faith, but only to a conflict that arises from the structure of KudoZ. The issue is whether the structure could be tweaked to eliminate or minimize this problem, and, until a structural solution is implemented, whether the affected answerer can do something that is fair and does not escalate the friction. My suggestion, and my practice, is simply to point out the conflict when it occurs.
| | | | | What`s this fuss about? (III) | Nov 2, 2005 |
firtsFuad Yahya wrote: Walter Landesman wrote:
What`s this fuss about?
This fuss is about what happens when someone disagrees and answers (or answers and disagrees) at the same time. It is allowed by the site rules but seems to many people to carry an element of unfairness.
Thank you, Fuad. But I KNEW what the fact was about, I had read all the previous postings.
What I meant was that I didn`t understand why all this fuss. It seemed so clear to me. No ethical issues involved (most of the times). No need, no reason for this forum topic. I thought my first comments had been water clear ( http://www.proz.com/post/275632#275632 ) It seems they hadn´t.
Again, thanks for answering.
Walter
[Edited at 2005-11-02 20:04]
| | | | | What`s this fuss about? (IV) | Nov 2, 2005 |
Fuad Yahya wrote:
My suggestion, and my practice, is simply to point out the conflict when it occurs.
Hi Fuad,
Yes, I agree with you. If a conflict does occur and is not somebody`s sensitivity or ego which is affected.
Best,
Walter.
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