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Proposal: introduce not-for-points answers
Thread poster: Kim Metzger
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 13:24
SITE FOUNDER
Thanks, Valery Aug 24, 2007

Valery Kaminski wrote:
Well, all the info anybody wants the asker to know is very often supplied through "Ask the asker" feature in my pair (EN-RUS).
Probably, it is not used the same way in other pairs?
Still, it is often very helpful. May be it could be titled some other way to envelope this new proposal officially?

Maybe that would be the better solution. To officially broaden the purpose of the "ask the asker" box to "discussion".


 
Kim Metzger
Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 11:24
German to English
TOPIC STARTER
Redefining the ask the asker box to allow for professional advice Aug 24, 2007

Henry D wrote:

Maybe that would be the better solution. To officially broaden the purpose of the "ask the asker" box to "discussion".


KudoZ is a help system that should also include helping askers become better askers. I'm referring here to pro-level questions only, i.e. questions asked by professional translators. We're currently allowed to ask for more context, and informally in many language pairs the ask-the-asker box is also frequently used to help educate new askers. If we're going to redefine the ask-the-asker box to allow helpful references, explanations, etc. we should also consider sanctioning a practice that is quietly allowed in some sub-communities. To do this, we would also need to take a second look at rule 3.7:

Commentary on askers or answerers, and their postings or decisions to post, is not allowed. Comments or insinuations concerning an answerer's or asker's experience or profile, his/her decision to post a certain question or answer, grade or close a question in a certain way, make a certain glossary entry, etc., are strictly prohibited (whether posted publicly, made directly to the person in question, or made to another site user).

As the rule is currently written, members are prohibited from giving professional advice to askers. Again, the rule prohibiting professional advice is enforced to the letter in some language pairs but such advice is tolerated and even encouraged in others. I know from personal experience that new users can benefit immensely from helpful advice on how to get the best results from KudoZ.

If rule 3.7 is reconsidered, it should be done so in light of rule 2.1 for asking questions:

KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted. Resources available include the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > ProZ.com Term Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines, etc. If translations are found elsewhere and the decision to post a KudoZ question is made nevertheless, information found elsewhere should be included, along with an explanation of what further information is sought.


 
Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 14:24
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
I like this alternative Aug 24, 2007

Henry D wrote:

Maybe that would be the better solution. To officially broaden the purpose of the "ask the asker" box to "discussion".


I like this alternative.

I would not reconsider rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.7#3.7 (Commentary on askers or answerers, and their postings or decisions to post, is not allowed).

I would suggest keeping this thread focused on ways of providing information related to the question without competing for the points and outside the reliability ratio computation.

Regards,
Enrique


 
Endre Both
Endre Both  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:24
English to German
Broadening the scope of "ask the asker" notes Aug 25, 2007

Maybe that would be the better solution. To officially broaden the purpose of the "ask the asker" box to "discussion".


This would have the significant advantage of giving official support to a widespread practice rather than having to educate people on using a totally new function.

But I'm not sure the current format (asker notes at the top, answers at the bottom) would be ideal for a broader type of discussion, but maybe it would work out well.

Personally, I still favour full-blown not-for-points answers (or "pointerZ" – I like that term, Flo) being integrated into the normal sequence of answers.

Endre


 
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:24
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
I would love to see both features implemented Aug 31, 2007

I am with Endre regarding the "Not for points" answers. This would be beneficial for the asker, and it would eliminate future problems if the reliability ratio ever gets implemented. It has been asked in the past several times and I am glad it is being seriously considered now.

I also support the idea of a discussion area. Many times the best results come out of brainstorming between all participants of a KudoZ question (asker, answerers, and others who do not submit a regular answe
... See more
I am with Endre regarding the "Not for points" answers. This would be beneficial for the asker, and it would eliminate future problems if the reliability ratio ever gets implemented. It has been asked in the past several times and I am glad it is being seriously considered now.

I also support the idea of a discussion area. Many times the best results come out of brainstorming between all participants of a KudoZ question (asker, answerers, and others who do not submit a regular answer). Currently, there is no dedicated place for this, so what end up happening is that people use the Ask the Asker box for this (which is - strictly speaking - against the rules), or use the Add Note function and keep adding noted to their answers in response to other's contributions. But of these "workarounds" are discouraged practices (via the rules or the FAQ or just common sense), but since they are being used quite a lot, that means there is a real need for the functionality.
So, I think a dedicated discussion area would be wonderful - I would not put it to the top of the page though, I think the Question, Answer(s), Discussion order from top to bottom would be better. Or, have the discussion in a separate window (via a link), which could be turned into a floating box on one's screen, if that's desired. Anyway, that's a detail, I am sure the design folks will solve this.

[Edited at 2007-08-31 02:23]
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Konstantin Kisin
Konstantin Kisin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:24
Russian to English
+ ...
Great idea. Sep 3, 2007

I think both the ideas expressed here (not-for-points answers and expanding the ask the asker box) are great. I also agree with Endre that a) all information/pointerz/whatever must remain subject to peer comments of some sort (not necessarily in the form of agrees or disagrees but some form of response must be available) b) expanding the ask the asker box would be a good idea because it would support what is already commonplace.

Of the two, I probably favour the latter and I would
... See more
I think both the ideas expressed here (not-for-points answers and expanding the ask the asker box) are great. I also agree with Endre that a) all information/pointerz/whatever must remain subject to peer comments of some sort (not necessarily in the form of agrees or disagrees but some form of response must be available) b) expanding the ask the asker box would be a good idea because it would support what is already commonplace.

Of the two, I probably favour the latter and I would suggest that each question has some sort of mini-forum at the bottom where there is room for a forum-like discussion of the issue at hand.

My only (!) negative comment for this topic is that I am hesitant to support the idea of KudoZ ratios and I see this as a step in that direction. After all, if you have been giving what you considered to have been "not-for-points" answers for years you will now be penalised for them in a way that you could not have predicted.
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R. Alex Jenkins
R. Alex Jenkins  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 14:24
Member (2006)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Look before you leap! Sep 4, 2007

One of the great things about the Kudoz system is the competitive edge; knowing that if you give a wrong answer, everyone on Proz, including all the minor/abstract language pairs, could be laughing at your utter ignorance until the end of eternity. OK, I'm exaggerating, but you get the drift.

How many times have you thought "should I / shouldn't I press the 'submit answer' button" ?
Hundreds of times?
"Are you absolutely, lutely, lutely, lutely sure"? "ABBBSolutely"?
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One of the great things about the Kudoz system is the competitive edge; knowing that if you give a wrong answer, everyone on Proz, including all the minor/abstract language pairs, could be laughing at your utter ignorance until the end of eternity. OK, I'm exaggerating, but you get the drift.

How many times have you thought "should I / shouldn't I press the 'submit answer' button" ?
Hundreds of times?
"Are you absolutely, lutely, lutely, lutely sure"? "ABBBSolutely"?
Remember, if you're wrong then you run the risk of eternal ridicule!
I have thought that, many, many times.
Sometimes I have submitted an answer and have regretted it, sometimes I have been lucky and gotten it right, but usually I bide my time and make sure I'm +90% certain before giving my answer. That's the edge!

The system isn't completely fair but it does balance out well with time; sometimes, for example, I'm furious at getting +10 peer agrees and NOT having my answer chosen. However my real fear is that if you change the Kudoz system then you will make it slightly less stimulating and less fun!

The crude expression in English is: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". So leave it as it is.

I agree however that 'Ask the Asker' could be improved on, perhaps by adjusting the Kudoz rules slightly in order to give more flexibility as to what can and cannot be discussed.

Fortunately, there are some really nice people on ProZ, such as Patricia Rosas (meeooow, we've got another cat Patricia!) for example, but their opinions do not, I feel, constitute a justified change to the Kudoz system.
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Patricia Rosas
Patricia Rosas  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:24
Spanish to English
+ ...
In memoriam
KudoZ, kitties, etc... Sep 4, 2007

Richard Jenkins wrote:

How many times have you thought "should I / shouldn't I press the 'submit answer' button" ?
Hundreds of times?
"Are you absolutely, lutely, lutely, lutely sure"? "ABBBSolutely"?
...

The crude expression in English is: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". So leave it as it is.

I agree however that 'Ask the Asker' could be improved on, perhaps by adjusting the Kudoz rules slightly in order to give more flexibility as to what can and cannot be discussed.



Richard,

Thanks for my laugh of the day! Usually, I just ask myself, "Absolutely sure?????" Now, it will be: "lutely, lutely, lutely ...."!

And of course, your opinion about KudoZ is worth at least as much as mine! But I do hope that we can have more space for discussion. That's my main concern; the point system doesn't bother me -- doesn't particularly delight me either

I wish I could send you all the kitty stuff that is stacked in the car port, awaiting a new home. Hope your new family member has enough sense to stay put. Enjoy!!

Best,
Patricia


 
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Proposal: introduce not-for-points answers






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