| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Translators happy with very low rates? Thread poster: Rob Grayson
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Perereinger (X)
Local time: 17:11
| Quality Translators need to combine efforts to push up rates | Jan 21, 2008 |
IMHO the often outrageous rates offered by Western European agencies for skilled translation work is a matter of supply and demand. Until translators are happy to tell agencies that the rates they offer are rubbish, these agencies will continue to get away with slave wage rates. Recently I saw an agency advertising on Proz offering 0.05 euro per word for Portuguese to English technical translation. I took a look at their website. Under its client section it had an automated quotation page. I pr... See more IMHO the often outrageous rates offered by Western European agencies for skilled translation work is a matter of supply and demand. Until translators are happy to tell agencies that the rates they offer are rubbish, these agencies will continue to get away with slave wage rates. Recently I saw an agency advertising on Proz offering 0.05 euro per word for Portuguese to English technical translation. I took a look at their website. Under its client section it had an automated quotation page. I pretended to be a customer needing a 1000 word non urgent translation from Portuguese to English and inputted the data requested. The quote came back as a cost to me of 0.19 euros a word. The agency was creaming 0.14 per word off a translators effort. I upped my rate immediately in line with what the end client appears prepared to pay the agency. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 17:11
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Your dentist serves the public | Jan 21, 2008 |
Williamson wrote:
My dentist charges €50 per consultation of half an hour. All these service-providers insist on immediate payment, not after 30 days or 60 days.
But your dentist delivers a public service, not a business service. It is not uncommon for business-to-business transactions to be settled only after 30 days or more. Translation is a business service.
| | | | | Perfect, Yolanda. | Jan 21, 2008 |
Yolanda Broad wrote: While it is perfectly appropriate to quote your own rates in response to a job posting, please note that: "Responses to job postings should be based upon interest in the work. Contacting a job poster (by using the quoting form or contacting directly) to make commentary on the posting without having any interest in completing the job, is prohibited." http://www.proz.com/siterules/jobs_answ/2.1#2.1
When I wrote to this outsourcer I showed my absolute interest in the job. I need to work, Yolanda. I quoted him my rates, obviously not 0.01 which I regard as inappropriate but 0.10 per source word. And then I added my comment on his rates as I thought it had been a typo.
I did not know it was prohibited to contact a job poster. I thought he was looking to receive a high-quality translation. I considered his rates very low and very unfair.
That's it.
Have a nice day
Inés
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:11
Flemish to English
+ ...
| Professional | Jan 21, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Williamson wrote:
My dentist charges €50 per consultation of half an hour. All these service-providers insist on immediate payment, not after 30 days or 60 days. But your dentist delivers a public service, not a business service. It is not uncommon for business-to-business transactions to be settled only after 30 days or more. Translation is a business service.
My dentist is a professional. If you do not pay him after he has finished,I will not have to call him for a second appointment a week or so later should further treatment be required.
The garage, where my car is serviced/repaired will not give me back the key after repairs, if I do not pay immediately, the domestic caterer, who delivers meals when I am too busy will not come the next day or the next week if I do not pay him end of the week.
True, the rate of the dentist is imposed by the government, but the rate of the garage, domestic caterer, plumber, accountant... is not. For these people it is simple, you do not pay their rate (almost) immediately or you do not get their service. The problem with translation is that there are too many outsourcers without adequate funds to pay their translators should their customer not pay. Have say €12000 on your bank-account (happened to have a look of the account of an outsourcer) when you have to pay translators double, is not a healthy practise.
Why is it that for an interpreting assignment, I got paid after a fortnight with no ado about rates?
Within the E.U. it is 30 days (guideline with regard to late payment in business transactions), not 60. In that case, I will be the first to enforce my rights according to the stipulations of that guideline
[Edited at 2008-01-21 12:51]
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| @ D. J. Pottinger | Jan 21, 2008 |
D. J. Pottinger wrote:
IMHO the often outrageous rates offered by Western European agencies for skilled translation work is a matter of supply and demand.
I think (my subjective opinion!) you have hit the nail on the head with your above comment. This discussion, like so many others on rates, is going back and forth without focusing on the reality of how things work in a capitalist market: supply and demand. Just consider, for example, a similar low-rate situation, which is happening in the textile market or, on the opposite side, the oil market, where a lower amount of supply keeps increasing the prices.
The reality is that nowadays, with so many possibilities of access (thanks to the Internet) to most of the resources you need to work as a freelance translator, anyone can start working as a freelance translator and, therefore, the freelance translation market has a major "surplus" of translator supply in some language pairs.
And you have to add to that the fact that, for quite a number of years now, translation has finally become an "official" profession, with universities offering specialized translation programs that are graduating yearly a high number of professionals in this field.
So the supply is going up and this is obviously generating a decrease in rates, because the more supply there is, the more options (at lower prices) you (as a "buyer" of supply) have.
D. J. Pottinger wrote:
Until translators are happy to tell agencies that the rates they offer are rubbish, these agencies will continue to get away with slave wage rates.
Recently I saw an agency advertising on Proz offering 0.05 euro per word for Portuguese to English technical translation. I took a look at their website. Under its client section it had an automated quotation page. I pretended to be a customer needing a 1000 word non urgent translation from Portuguese to English and inputted the data requested. The quote came back as a cost to me of 0.19 euros a word. The agency was creaming 0.14 per word off a translators effort. I upped my rate immediately in line with what the end client appears prepared to pay the agency.
I am skeptical by nature, and I seriously doubt that because I tell an agency that their rates are trash, they will start paying better. Even if all the worldwide freelance translators screamed and yelled together, unless we are all backed by some kind of local law to support our "demand" for a better rate, I don't think our screaming and yelling will produce any result. Also, remember we are freelancers, not in-house workers, so freelancing is a territory halfway between being a company and a mere worker.
Of course, you can always try to "convince" the abusive agency, but if we are talking about agencies which are unscrupulous enough to ask for 0,19 euros and pay a translator 0,05 euros, I think that if you openly complain to them the result will be that they will simply discard you from then on for being a "smartypants" and choose the next lowest rate candidate who can do the job more or less like you do (and these candidates will always exist, as long as there are no legal limits as to how low you can work for and who is allowed to do translation jobs).
I do love your idea about sending an agency a request for a quote of a fictitious job, in order to get an idea of how much they are actually getting and how much they in turn pay you. Still, even in this case, if you tell them how you discovered this information, I am (almost) sure they would end up discarding you.
In short, I find it positive to be "aware" of lower rates, but unless there are legal resources to penalize both abusive rates and non-professionals who contribute to flood the translation market and thus increase the supply of translators, I honestly feel that not much can be achieved by just complaining.
I guess, as some of the more business-savvy colleagues here have commented at times, that the only thing you can do is learn better how to sell your services to that segment of the market where translations are actually paid better.
Best,
Ivette
P.S.: I just remembered that, for example, unless we are talking about a specific segment of the market like Hollywood, where a strike of scriptwriters can actually achieve something because it is aimed at a specific market segment, I am not sure how we could achieve a similar result in a worldwide market such as freelance translation.
[Edited at 2008-01-21 14:48]
| | | | | Product x service | Jan 21, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
But your dentist delivers a public service, not a business service. It is not uncommon for business-to-business transactions to be settled only after 30 days or more. Translation is a business service.
Even business services, when performed by an individual (and not a company) to a company are usually paid on delivery. Ask that computer guy to redesign your company's web site, and you'll get a sample. As soon as it is approved, get your checkbook to see it uploaded.
Only when such services are continuous by nature, it's normal to keep a running account. This is the usual relationship between end-client and a specific translation agency. It could be a relationship between an end-client and a 'preferred' freelance translator involving constant work, but it shouldn't be the relationship between a good translation agency and its translators. The (often substancial) price markup the agency applies to these services should cover, on top of profit, the cost of financing this money for as long as needed to keep the end-client as such, as well as the risk of delinquent clients.
Williamson wrote:
True, the rate of the dentist is imposed by the government, but the rate of the garage, domestic caterer, plumber, accountant... is not. For these people it is simple, you do not pay their rate (almost) immediately or you do not get their service.
You said it all: it's a service! ... usually paid on delivery. B2B merchandise is usually paid later, or even in installments. This stems from the whole supply chain: the manufacturer buys raw materials on credit, works on it, sells the finished products on credit, and so it cycles over and over. Of course they need capital to get started, to buy an inventory of raw material.
Williamson wrote:
The problem with translation is that there are too many outsourcers without adequate funds to pay their translators should their customer not pay. Have say €12000 on your bank-account (happened to have a look of the account of an outsourcer) when you have to pay translators double, is not a healthy practise.
How much capital is needed to become a translation outsourcer? Almost none! Even a free user account at Proz will do. This is an open invitation to all kinds of leeches to mingle with honest translation agencies. They can charge hefty rates, pay low ones, and make a bundle using their vendors' work as working capital.
Maybe it's a good chance for the good, solid, honest, translation agencies to stand out from the crowd by paying their translators upon delivery, maybe asking to Just give us a couple of days to check if you've done it all and properly.
I've started to do something about it by immediately branding as a leech any outsourcer willing to pay later than in 30 days, and so I don't bother to bid for their jobs. As long as they can find translators willing to work under such terms, they won't care to hire me.
The same applies to rates. As long as there are translators accepting miserable rates, these will exist. When they stop doing so, rates will automatically rise to an adequate level.
Imagine this: An outsourcer posts a job on Proz for 1¢/w. Gets no bids at all. Raises it to 2¢/w. Same result. By successively doing so, they'll eventually reach an acceptable rate, maybe only acceptable by unacceptable translators. So they'll raise it one step further, and finally discover how much they should have been offering at the outset, in order not to waste time.
Of course, rates are not uniform worldwide. However it might be difficult to find adequate translators for specific language pairs in the "cheaper" regions of the world. So it's a natural price adjustment process. But it only will be natural after translators as a whole make up their minds not to accept any unacceptable rate and/or payment terms as imposed upon them.
The bottom line is that we must play our part for this process to become natural. Otherwise, there will always be translators everywhere working hard and bitterly regretting having accepted to do it for so little money.
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José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I've started to do something about it by immediately branding as a leech any outsourcer willing to pay later than in 30 days, and so I don't bother to bid for their jobs.
What are the rest of us waiting for? If most of our community drew such clear lines - I guess outsourcers wouldn't really have the choice to accept it, now, would they?
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Of course, rates are not uniform worldwide. However it might be difficult to find adequate translators for specific language pairs in the "cheaper" regions of the world.
Still, I seriously doubt there is ANY country in the world where one or two cents per word would pay for an internet connection, a phone and an office space (even if it is in your basement) AND still put bread on the table. The differences are there - I just doubt they are as big as some people try to make it seem...
[Edited at 2008-01-21 17:23]
| | | | | It seems so... | Jan 21, 2008 |
Viktoria,
Your name is on my mental list of people whose entries in Proz forum duscussions are always worth reading for their soundness and common sense.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I've started to do something about it by immediately branding as a leech any outsourcer willing to pay later than in 30 days, and so I don't bother to bid for their jobs.
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
What are the rest of us waiting for? If most of our community drew such clear lines - I guess outsourcers wouldn't really have the choice to accept it, now, would they?
The question is where did such practice come from? If there is always a translator that will bow to any stipulation, soon all outsourcers will be paying translators one full year after delivery.
That translator is bowing to take a good aim at his own foot, to avoid missing the shot.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Of course, rates are not uniform worldwide. However it might be difficult to find adequate translators for specific language pairs in the "cheaper" regions of the world.
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Still, I seriously doubt there is ANY country in the world where one or two cents per word would pay for an internet connection, a phone and an office space (even if it is in your basement) AND still put bread on the table. The differences are there - I just doubt they are as big as some people try to make it seem...
As far as I've heard, in some places in the Far East this seems possible, but it's definitely hearsay, as I've never been there.
In Brazil you can buy a 330 ml can of standard beer, or soda (e.g. Coca-Cola) for BRL 1 in a supermarket. That's roughly USD 0.55. Last time I was in London (long ago), such a can of soda cost GBP 2, today USD 1.95. Though I prefer our beer, the Coke will taste just the same.
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Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 17:11
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Makes no sense | Jan 21, 2008 |
Rob Grayson wrote:
0.035 euros per source word.
Rob
I might translate 200 to 400 words an hour on average depending on complexity (and with a first, second, third review, printed review etc).
That means that I'd earn at best 14 euros an hour, from which I'd have to deduct costs (money and time costs, like tax, social security, phone and Internet, equipment, emailing time, admin time, etc etc etc, not to mention learning, studying and training time...). Meanwhile, I'd also need to build in down-time for whatever reason (no job on the go, computer problems, etc). And add on the money and time invested in trying to obtain clients.
If I cleaned houses I'd get maybe 10 euros an hour, with no costs other, maybe, than a mop!
If I taught English, I'd get at the VERY least 14 or 18 euros an hour (maybe up to 30 or 40, depending), social security covered, and hardly any costs ...
Makes no sense. I'm still translating becuase I know I make a good bit more money that I would cleaning or teaching. Humans are theoretically rational beings, and an economist would have a hard time figuring out how people accept earning low wages doing one job when they would (relatively) make more in another job. My only conclusion is that these are people "starting out", yet that's not a satisfactory answer as it would seem logically to only refer to some of these translators.
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 17:11
Spanish to English
+ ...
Russell and Rob both referred to non-natives; however, I think that's largely irrelevant to this low rates discussion, as non-natives also have to eat, live and pay the same bills as natives in the same country!
[Edited at 2008-01-21 21:08]
| | | | | True, but... | Jan 21, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
In Brazil you can buy a 330 ml can of standard beer, or soda (e.g. Coca-Cola) for BRL 1 in a supermarket. That's roughly USD 0.55. Last time I was in London (long ago), such a can of soda cost GBP 2, today USD 1.95. Though I prefer our beer, the Coke will taste just the same.
This is true, but there is a but. For example, in Hungary, a bottle of Coke costs about five times less than here in Canada, if we base the calculation on exchange rates, not cost of living. BUT based on the same calculation method, an internet connection costs twice as much in Hungary as in Canada. At the end of the day, if you calculate your entire cost of business, and then also the cost of life, versus your revenue, then the Coke example doesn't hold anymore. The bottom line will still be lower in Hungary than in Canada - but by how much?
I have read many, many comments on such cost of living discrepancies on this forum in the past, where for example Indian translators were saying that a litre of milk costs so and so much less for them in roupees than it costs me in dollars, and many people seem to think that this makes it right for people in developing nations to charge muuuuch less. But how much less? If they base these discrepancies on the cost of milk only, their calculation will lead to a totally unrealistic result, which will be completely different from the result they would have obtained had they calculated ALL their expenses.
In Russia, translation rates are by far inferior to the "rest of the World" - and yet, the cost of living in most Russian cities is often several times that of some North American cities, where rates are much higher.
Rates being lower in some parts of the world is normal and nothing to make a fuss about. But I honestly believe that the gap between rates in different countries is not representative of the gap between costs of living. And if we add to this that too many freelancers don't realize that when they get paid ten cents a word, they only end up putting five cents in their pocket (taxes, cost of business, dues, certification, software, training, etc.)...
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Your name is on my mental list of people whose entries in ProZ.com forum duscussions are always worth reading for their soundness and common sense.
Thank you so much! This is really sweet - and totally reciprocal!
[Edited at 2008-01-21 21:32]
| | | | Maria Cancro
United States
Local time: 11:11
Italian to English
+ ...
| Parallels with other industries | Jan 21, 2008 |
I have read all of the commentary of this forum and I would like to share some insight into this situation. It seems like ProZ, in its current state, tends to favor outsourcers more than it tends to protect the translators from getting burned. The problems faced by translators of this site are very similar to the problems faced by graphic artists 15 years ago. Back then, graphic artists were not considered to be professionals, their product was judged based on very subjective criteria, artwork w... See more I have read all of the commentary of this forum and I would like to share some insight into this situation. It seems like ProZ, in its current state, tends to favor outsourcers more than it tends to protect the translators from getting burned. The problems faced by translators of this site are very similar to the problems faced by graphic artists 15 years ago. Back then, graphic artists were not considered to be professionals, their product was judged based on very subjective criteria, artwork was being pirated, artists were underpaid, and graphic artists had very limited means of legal protection. Thus, the Graphic Artist Guild was formed which now produces a comprehensive annual publication called “The Graphic Artist’s Guild to Ethical Pricing”. It contains extensive pricing tables, chapters on bidding and negotiating skills and a complete set of forms and contracts for virtually any type of job. The Graphic Artists Guild has single-handedly elevated the graphic artist industry to the level of professionalism that it deserves, and you can trace its 15 year history of milestones by visiting the site www.gag.org. These days, professional graphic artist firms prepare formal bid proposals for jobs, require signed contracts and 50% payment upfront before the artists even begin to work on the job. And if the client doesn’t like the final outcome, they still have to pay a “kill fee”.
If it hasn’t been done already through another organization, I think it is about time that the creators of ProZ begin to set structures in place on the site and improve upon existing structures that specifically protect the translator. For example, a page that refers people to where they can find legal recourse, etc. would be a good start. Many of the ideas expressed in this forum offer clues as to what types of structures are needed and how they can be used to protect the translator. It would probably be a good idea to assign a sub-committee dedicated to achieving this goal. I believe the problem is with the structure of the site more than it is with the translators themselves. ▲ Collapse
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Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:11
Flemish to English
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| Overnight translators. | Jan 22, 2008 |
I wonder why some with legal or business backgrounds become translators overnight? Legal services and business consulting (in finance, hrm, operations restructuring) pays more, no hassle over rates and payment on time? Especially those with an economic background should be inclined to calculate first and then take the plunge.
[Edited at 2008-01-22 08:04]
| | | | | Nothing to be proud of ... | Jan 22, 2008 |
MaryAnn Diorio, Ph.D. wrote:
When we accept rates lower than the standard, we do a disservice not only to ourselves but also to the profession as a whole. Those who accept substandard rates make it difficult for those who charge standard rates.
If we stood in agreement on a just rate range and did not waiver from that agreement, I am convinced that agencies would pay us what we deserve. But as long as some of us agree to work for rates far below the standard, agencies will almost always choose the translators with the low rates.
In the long run, we all lose.
Hi,
Is there anything to add here? In a few words, MaryAnn summed up the whole thing.
To me, accepting lower rates than the standard (whatever the reason may be) as well as indecent payment terms (time...) means that we, freelancers, have lost any respect for our trade, for our position as human beings, as professionals.
Ok - we have to pay our bills, like anybody else!
But is that enough to agree with rates such as 0.01 USD per source word, for example!?
Yes, that's what an outsourcer from the Dominican Republic was offering some days ago on ProZ JobBoard? Is that possible!?
It's a pity that ProZ does strictly nothing to protect freelancers from dishonest outsourcers who want translators to work for peanuts.
While Proz should promote translators and interpreters' professional position and ban dishonest translation companies from this site, such offers are displayed there day after day ... And as long as there are such 'indecent' job proposals, there'll always be people ready to accept them!
Nothing to be proud of ...
Cheers
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:11
Flemish to English
+ ...
| The Americas and Europe. | Jan 22, 2008 |
Maria Cancro wrote:
I believe the problem is with the structure of the site more than it is with the translators themselves.
An other site, which I shall not mention by name because forum-rules forbid it, has imposed a minimum-rate in its bidding system. From a programming point of view, this does not require great efforts.
However, every time the debate about rates pops up, the argument not to introduce such a tool are American anti-trust laws. I don't understand? Proz.com is a company incorporated in Syracuse, (N.Y.) with servers in the same place (?), but with offices in Argentina (subject to Argentinian law). If American law forbids imposing minimum rates, what does Argentinean law says about that? Apparently, in Europe this is not a problem. Imposing a minimum rate does not equal price-fixing which is forbidden by European regulations.
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