Britain could be losing out on lucrative trade deals as a result, MPs fear. They say the drought is in part the legacy of a decision by Gordon Brown’s Treasury to close the Foreign Office language school in order to save £1m a year.
In India, whose government this year declared France the preferred bidder over the UK to build 126 fighter jets in a £7bn deal, just one UK diplomat can speak Hindi.
In Pyongyang, North Korea, five British diplomats are posted and are encouraging the regime to drop its nuclear programme. Just one can speak a beginner’s level of Korean.
Figures show that 48 of Britain’s 1,900 diplomats receive extra pay because they have an ‘extensive’ grip of a language, meaning they are close to communicating like a native.
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See: Telegraph.co.uk
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United Kingdom
Local time: 21:17
Hebrew to English
As Charles Crawford, the former ambassador to Poland admitted:
"Postings are 3-4 years: more than long enough for a diligent 'speaker' to get very good"
I'm not so sure. Motivation is a key element in language learning, it's hard to muster much motivation when faced with the futili... See more
As Charles Crawford, the former ambassador to Poland admitted:
"Postings are 3-4 years: more than long enough for a diligent 'speaker' to get very good"
I'm not so sure. Motivation is a key element in language learning, it's hard to muster much motivation when faced with the futility of learning a language for the sake of 3-4 years before being moved on and repeating the same endless cycle. In addition, I'm not sure how much progress can be made in 3-4 years - in language learning, 3-4 years is a drop in the ocean, especially when you factor in the fact that most diplomats, despite being immersed in the target country will still essentially be surrounded by English.
After 3-4 years of normal language learning (expected of our children) they reach, what?, key stage 3/4....which is veryyyy basic language (wo ist das Schwimmbad? Ich habe meine Hausaufgaben gemacht/vergessen), and the children don't have a full time job to juggle too. I think expectations are being unrealistically set here.
I'm all for encouraging the British to learn more language(s), but let's be realistic and reasonable. If your job entails only spending 3ish years in a country, you aren't necessarily going to be THAT invested in becoming fluent. ▲ Collapse
Germany
Local time: 22:17
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Ty, that's what I think exactly. I don't think that the figures are any better for other countries - nor that they need to, or could be. That's what translators and interpreters are for.
Local time: 22:17
French to English
+ ...
"Postings are 3-4 years: more than long enough for a diligent 'speaker' to get very good". Yes, why not?
Some people are more gifted than others at picking up languages, certainly from a spoken/listening point of view.
A few diplomats I have known find the ability to understand what is being said a very useful attribute even if they don't speak the language well. In some cultures you need to be able to interpret what the interpreter is saying, s... See more
"Postings are 3-4 years: more than long enough for a diligent 'speaker' to get very good". Yes, why not?
Some people are more gifted than others at picking up languages, certainly from a spoken/listening point of view.
A few diplomats I have known find the ability to understand what is being said a very useful attribute even if they don't speak the language well. In some cultures you need to be able to interpret what the interpreter is saying, since they may be being diplomatic themselves!!!
My son came to France aged 30 with no previous knowledge of French, and within 6 months understood 95% of what was being said and after 18 months was speaking pretty fluently. And it took my father only 2 years to speak Cantonese fluently, and my uncle only one year to become fluent in Russian.
As you say it depends on the degree of motivation, and I'd have thought career diplomats must be very motivated to go into that type of work, especially knowing they're likely to get shifted around. Besides, I think it's easier to find the motivation for such studies as an adult, especially if you're surrounded by the language you're learning. ▲ Collapse
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:17
Hebrew to English
After all, if being a diplomat was all about language knowledge, then surely they'd recruit linguists, not specialists in international politics, law and economists (and p... See more
After all, if being a diplomat was all about language knowledge, then surely they'd recruit linguists, not specialists in international politics, law and economists (and people with far more shrewd negotiating skills - the whole "rates" debacle might attest to the fact that linguists don't always make the best negotiators - debatable).
[Edited at 2012-04-11 13:04 GMT] ▲ Collapse
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:17
Hebrew to English
The whole rotation system is designed to prevent Clientitis and "going native" which is completely antipodal to long term language acquisition. They may say they want their diplomats to learn the local language, but they fear assimilation and confused loyalties more.
If we should blame anyone, we should bl... See more
The whole rotation system is designed to prevent Clientitis and "going native" which is completely antipodal to long term language acquisition. They may say they want their diplomats to learn the local language, but they fear assimilation and confused loyalties more.
If we should blame anyone, we should blame the Foreign Office for being stuck in a cold-war mentality, not the nomadic souls being shifted from pillar to post (and still being expected to be fantastically gifted polyglots).
At least Charles Crawford (the diplomat quoted in my initial post) agrees the Telegraph article is pretty dire journalism:
http://charlescrawford.biz/blog/fco-language-skills-decline-and-fall-
[Edited at 2012-04-11 13:33 GMT] ▲ Collapse
United States
Local time: 14:17
English to Spanish
+ ...
This makes me wonder what the figure is for the USA, maybe not much better, maybe even worse.
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:17
Hebrew to English
Charles Crawford today wrote a response to the Telegraph article from yesterday, he argues:
Seems like human error to me. It also seems to me that linguistic misadventures like this are more likely to occur with a diplomat who has crammed for a year or so to learn a language than to a professional translator/interpreter who has spent a vast portion of their life learning the language. The above case could also just be an indication of a "bad egg", an unfortunate choice of linguist.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/9195725/Language-skills-are-being-lost-in-translation.html
This is a case of chronic idiocy. No amount of language learning can necessarily cure that!
Personally, these arguments do little to convince me.
United States
Local time: 16:17
Member (2010)
English to German
+ ...
This makes me wonder what the figure is for the USA, maybe not much better, maybe even worse.
I don't know what the exact statistics are for US diplomats. But having been a foreign service spouse for several assignments, I know that for certain positions (like for example consular or political officers), diplomats undergo months of full-time language training prior to their overseas assignments to get to a certain level of proficiency in the foreign language.
That's often not the case though for positions in other fields like IT, Security and it also depends on the hierarchy of the position.
On the other hand, I did meet plenty of foreign service families, both employees and family members, who could barely say hello in the language of their host country three or four years into their assignments. I've always found that a pity for them to miss such a tremendous opportunity of learning about a foreign culture right on your door step.
Poland
Local time: 22:17
English to Polish
+ ...
Therefore, I completely agree that (self-)motivation is a must, but only if paired with the willingness to learn. ▲ Collapse
Germany
Local time: 22:17
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
I have an Aussie friend who came to Poland 3 years ago with his wife (Aussie as well, so it wasn't all that 'easy' as in a mixed Polish/English marriage) and kids. He has been investing his time, money and effort in learning our difficult language ever since. I am proud to say that, even though he's not an ambassador or a politician for that matter, he can speak Polish. Yes, I can hear he's not from around here in the way he produces certain sounds, but by God he's good!
Therefore, I completely agree that (self-)motivation is a must, but only if paired with the willingness to learn.
Can your friend repeat this with a new language every 3 to 4 years?
Poland
Local time: 22:17
English to Polish
+ ...
But - owing to his profession - he might have to.
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:17
Hebrew to English
The rest of us are just mere mortals though and many diplomats out there aren't blessed language learners. Although I'm not a fan of any language acquisition theory which claims it's only the territory of children and the young to be able to "absorb" language easily, I also think that, perhaps by purely affective reasons (affective filters etc), learning a language as an "older" adult with a busy schedule is another kettle of fish.
I'm on... See more
The rest of us are just mere mortals though and many diplomats out there aren't blessed language learners. Although I'm not a fan of any language acquisition theory which claims it's only the territory of children and the young to be able to "absorb" language easily, I also think that, perhaps by purely affective reasons (affective filters etc), learning a language as an "older" adult with a busy schedule is another kettle of fish.
I'm only familiar with a handful of British ambassadors, but they don't tend to be a particularly "youthful" bunch.
We also need to consider that it's not as if British embassies are completely without local language provision just because the ambassador isn't fluent, they have local "fixers", translators and interpreters, local staff, junior British staff with language abilities. So we shouldn't have a panic attack just because "the boss" isn't a cunning linguist. (S)he'll be surrounded by people willing and able to remedy that situation.
I think it would be interesting to listen to a few foreign ambassadors to the U.K. to see just how "extensive" or "operational" their English is..... ▲ Collapse
Brazil
Local time: 17:17
Member (2012)
English to Dutch
+ ...
It is just a question of respect and politeness.
Granted; there are originating countries ... See more
It is just a question of respect and politeness.
Granted; there are originating countries for which "taking language lessons" is just slightly more complicated and less obvious than for others, but being stationed 4 years in a country definitely justifies making an effort. ▲ Collapse
Denmark
Local time: 22:17
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
BTW I was fluent within a year of moving to Denmark. Of course you can be fluent after a couple of years.<... See more
BTW I was fluent within a year of moving to Denmark. Of course you can be fluent after a couple of years.
Even when diplomats have to move on, they would not find their language skills completely wasted. They might move to a country that spoke the same language or a similar one. It is nearly always easier to learn a third or fourth language than the second.
Many Danes make an effort to learn a little of the language before they go on holiday just for a couple of WEEKS. This may mean a whole year of evening classes. They do not all go to the same country and study the same language several years in a row, though many do, of course.
They ALL learn at least one language at school and many learn two. It is simply a necessity. The same goes for the speakers of thousands of other languages round the world. It is taken for granted that Scandinavians speak another language or two when they go abroad, for business at all levels.
What would happen if their ambassadors turned up in the UK and did not speak the lingo? Nobody would take them seriously for a minute!
_____________________________________
Back in the 60s when I did my A levels, two languages were not really exceptional.
We could read a newspaper and write letters to penfriends, and we read literature going back to Goethe, Molière and Racine for exams. We read modern novels and poetry without a dictionary in the other hand. So some diplomats might be expected to have that much from their schooldays. At least one language O-level was part of being properly educated then! My brother, a non-linguist engineer, had quite a passable foundation of French to build on when he was posted in Africa, and was soon fluent again.
I must admit I was shaken when asked to help nephews and nieces with French and German a generation later. I had forgotten - and could polish up again - far more than they were expected to know.
_____________________________________
I have a lot of relatives who have travelled, not great linguists, but from an age when we did not go round expecting everyone to speak English. It was regarded as common courtesy to speak the language, and I remember one aunt struggling, but proudly succeeding with Yoruba in the 50s and early 60s.
So what has happened to the British in the last twenty years?
I don't understand it!
[Edited at 2012-04-12 15:03 GMT] ▲ Collapse
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:17
Hebrew to English
In addition, what about mutual intelligible languages? Does it take this into account?
If the Russian ambassador can speak at least one Slavic language, then chances are... See more
In addition, what about mutual intelligible languages? Does it take this into account?
If the Russian ambassador can speak at least one Slavic language, then chances are he has a fair understanding of Russian, but just because he can't tick the "Russian" box he's included as one of the dreaded "1 in 40".
Conversely, an ambassador once stationed in Jordan but then moved to Morocco might say he can speak "Arabic" (the Levantine Arabic of Jordan) but I doubt this will help him much in (the Maghrebi Arabic speaking) Morocco, but he might not be included because he can speak "Arabic".
I'm always suspicious of any article which boldly states "Figures show....." and this one is no different. It seems to have more holes than a dartboard.
It also includes flat-out lies:
Utter drivel. Our current ambassador to Egypt, James Watt, is a fluent Arabic speaker, which can be easily verified online:
http://ukinegypt.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/our-embassy/our-ambassador/career-history
That's pretty poor journalism when they report something as "fact" that a two-second Google search can debunk.
Should they have ever closed the FCO language school? No, of course not, but it's open again now in any case Charles Crawford revealed on his blog that language teaching never really stopped.
"The FCO language Centre was indeed closed down under Labour. Was this bad? Probably. But it did not mean that language teaching stopped. In my own case I embarked on Serbia not via the FCO language Centre but rather with a hard-smoking sardonic Serb teacher called Zorica Radosavljevic in her small flat in Hammersmith. These days there are many new ways to learn a language via web-based training, so it may make sense not to have a heavy training infrastructure base in central London. "
Demonizing the diplomats and smearing them with lies is just pathetic journalism at its worst.
I'm not saying that the British don't have a problem with language learning in general, including an almost American-esque insular (cringe-worthy) attitude towards learning them, but I'll spare my blushes for more concrete evidence of linguistic ignorance.
[Edited at 2012-04-12 15:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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