"Glossary-building" KudoZ to be deployed in English to Albanian
Thread poster: Enrique Cavalitto

Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 17:33
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
May 25, 2009

Glossary-building KudoZ (GBK) terms, already introduced into other language pairs, will now be available to the English to Albanian sub-community.

The primary purpose of GBK questions is to enable the ProZ.com community to together find the best translation of a given term into a given language, and to incorporate the term and its translation into an authoritative multi-lingual glossary which will be made available openly under the Creative Commons "Attribution" license ("CC-by").

A secondary purpose of the new format is to provide opportunities for KudoZ participation (along with the associated benefits of networking, learning and professional differentiation), in pairs and fields in which few questions are currently asked.

Glossary-building questions have several unique structural characteristics, including:
  • inclusion of definitions and example sentences
  • possible restrictions on who may answer
  • a fixed period of time available for answering
  • selection of best answer by peers


Glossary-building questions will be run in parallel to the traditional "help" type questions, which will not change in format.

When it comes to building a glossary, the new "Glossary-building" type of question are expected to have the following advantages over the "help-based" type:
  • Time pressure is reduced.
  • Translations are submitted and evaluated by native translators who are specialized in the particular combination.
  • Context is more complete, both in source and target languages, making for a more useful reference.


During the first 72 hours (submission phase) of a GBK question, participation is restricted to users native in the source or target language, having the language pair among their working pairs and at least one of the fields of expertise (principal or additional) among their specialty pairs.

If the question remains open after the first 72 hours, it moves into the selection phase, where participation is enabled for users with the field of expertise among their specialty or working ones.

For more information see http://www.proz.com/faq/terminology_term_help.html#glossary_building_kudoz

The first two questions are:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/3266891
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/3266903

Regards,
Enrique


 

Fabiana Papastefani-Pezzoni  Identity Verified
Romania
Local time: 23:33
Member (2003)
English to Albanian
+ ...
Revision of classification of terms May 29, 2009

Dear Enrique,

I am writing with regard to the classification of the Glossary building terms. I personally find it very restricting and some times even not clear. I will explain:

1) http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_albanian/retail/3268261-anchor_store.html is in Bus/Finance, where I specialize, including all subareas, and here I can enter a translation term.

Then:

2) http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_albanian/marketing_market_research/3272939-market_segmentation.html categorized under Bus/Finance but sub area as Marketing Research, I cannot enter a term. Now, to start with, the categorizing so narrow-down is not very correct as in fact this term does not pertain only to Marketing Research. I use see term very often in my translations of also banking, when it is about credits, loans and also business plans, finance, etc.

Ok, I saw the specific categorizing that you had entered and decided to add it at the moment in order to enter what I know for sure about this term. The area can be effective three days after I enter it, so can answer only after three days. What I want to say, Enrique, is that I would like to know on what bases and who is the finance expert to say that this term is only marketing research.

Thank you for looking into this and kind regards,

Fabiana


 

Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 17:33
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER
Cuestions are currently created by staff May 29, 2009

Fabiana Papastefani-Pezzoni wrote:

Ok, I saw the specific categorizing that you had entered and decided to add it at the moment in order to enter what I know for sure about this term. The area can be effective three days after I enter it, so can answer only after three days. What I want to say, Enrique, is that I would like to know on what bases and who is the finance expert to say that this term is only marketing research.


Dear Fabiana,

For the time being the questions are created by staff, but there are plans to have them created by English native speakers who will be experts in the corresponding fields of expertise.

Please note that during the first 72 hours participation is restricted to users with the corresponding field(s) among their specialty fields, but after that point (if the question is still open) participation is also extended to users having these fields among their working fields of expertise.

Regards,
Enrique


 

Fabiana Papastefani-Pezzoni  Identity Verified
Romania
Local time: 23:33
Member (2003)
English to Albanian
+ ...
Thank you Quique May 29, 2009

Thanks for the explanation, Quique. I understand that this activity is at the beginnings but I still have my concerns about the categorizing and overall the way it is used.

You are a translator yourself, as far as I remember Quique, and and I am sure you may immediately distinguish a kudoz made by someone that has no clue, say, about Albanian, but needs only to know what that word is and another one that works with these two languages and posts a kudoz about a term that is fighting with or simply has no time to do more research then simply checking own terminology.

One one hand very detailed expertise and references are required to participate with this term and on the other hand someone having no clue about language, reality, economy, culture, decides to chose, to post and to categorize this term. Pardon me but I see a big professional conflict here. Things have to be thought a bit better. One cannot use one "pair of shoes" with different languages and it is not simply about a "find the translation of this term if you know it".

Kind regards and have a great week end,

Fabiana


 

Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 17:33
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER
How GBK works May 29, 2009

Fabiana Papastefani-Pezzoni wrote:

One one hand very detailed expertise and references are required to participate with this term and on the other hand someone having no clue about language, reality, economy, culture, decides to chose, to post and to categorize this term. Pardon me but I see a big professional conflict here. Things have to be thought a bit better. One cannot use one "pair of shoes" with different languages and it is not simply about a "find the translation of this term if you know it".

Fabiana


I don't see any professional conflict here. A concept is defined in English, including a term, definition and example sentence(s), and a similar concept should be created in the target language with its own term, definition and example sentence(s).

If the term has special considerations in the target language they can be included in the answer and will be useful for translators using the glossary in the future.

By the way, the GBK glossary is structured in such a way that it should be possible to "bridge" a concept between any pair of languages where the concept was created. For instance if a concept was created in English to Albanian and in English to Chinese, then the glossary should provide the equivalence of this concept in Albanian to/from Chinese.

Regards,
Enrique


 

Fabiana Papastefani-Pezzoni  Identity Verified
Romania
Local time: 23:33
Member (2003)
English to Albanian
+ ...
Thanks again Quique :)) Jun 1, 2009

..but I am afraid I did not explain my self fully. I have experience and have met most of the terms that you entered, dear Quique, but I cannot share my experience and enter a term because some one....you/staff have decided to narrow the field. That is all I actually wanted to say. The conflict I was speaking about is about profanes of a certain area, such as for example me in biology, decide upon things, fields, areas that in fact are not reflected in the same way in the target language.

I hear you when you say that Glossary building aims to construct bridges, ad I very much agree with you. There are many terms created in English and entered in the isolated-for decades Albanian language that had no correspondent term what so ever....and are pending there in the limbo or used in English. I am a financial translator and for decades many financial operations and concepts were simply not existing or happening in Albania, which came out of the world wars and occupations right to the communism totalitarianism. I mention this last historic element to illustrate from the linguistic point of view on how much economists and expert struggle them selves to find a proper term in Albanian for a term in English, which is not used only in the areas that you close it into!

As a translator that you are dear Quique, you know better then me what importance it has for the translator not only to know the language well, but know roots, circumstances, history, specific terminology, been around those specific environments.

I thank you again for the time you take to give me more insight into things. I wish you a great start of the week and pass my warm regards to you and all folks there.

Fabiana


 

Klementina Shahini
United States
Local time: 16:33
Member (2009)
English to Albanian
+ ...
Classification of terms Jun 5, 2009

Enrique wrote:

Glossary-building KudoZ (GBK) terms, already introduced into other language pairs, will now be available to the English to Albanian sub-community.

The primary purpose of GBK questions is to enable the ProZ.com community to together find the best translation of a given term into a given language, and to incorporate the term and its translation into an authoritative multi-lingual glossary which will be made available openly under the Creative Commons "Attribution" license ("CC-by").

A secondary purpose of the new format is to provide opportunities for KudoZ participation (along with the associated benefits of networking, learning and professional differentiation), in pairs and fields in which few questions are currently asked.

Glossary-building questions have several unique structural characteristics, including:
  • inclusion of definitions and example sentences
  • possible restrictions on who may answer
  • a fixed period of time available for answering
  • selection of best answer by peers


Glossary-building questions will be run in parallel to the traditional "help" type questions, which will not change in format.

When it comes to building a glossary, the new "Glossary-building" type of question are expected to have the following advantages over the "help-based" type:
  • Time pressure is reduced.
  • Translations are submitted and evaluated by native translators who are specialized in the particular combination.
  • Context is more complete, both in source and target languages, making for a more useful reference.


During the first 72 hours (submission phase) of a GBK question, participation is restricted to users native in the source or target language, having the language pair among their working pairs and at least one of the fields of expertise (principal or additional) among their specialty pairs.

If the question remains open after the first 72 hours, it moves into the selection phase, where participation is enabled for users with the field of expertise among their specialty or working ones.

For more information see http://www.proz.com/faq/terminology_term_help.html#glossary_building_kudoz

The first two questions are:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/3266891
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/3266903

Regards,
Enrique




Dear Enrique,

I am writing regarding the same issue that Fabiana wrote to you several days ago, restriction to the classification of Glossary Building Terms. I am watching close all the words posted and I see that at least a couple of them which got recognized as correct choices are wrong.(At least this is my opinion and I feel strongly about it) Because of the restriction I could not give my opinion. I would say that if the kudoZ would be open to anyone then we will have more voices and better chances to get the right answers. I don't know if I am allowed to discuss the words specifically but I see that some of them got recognition just because of the peer agreement even when there is no clear explanation for the word.

This brings up another issue. I feel that some translators have created a kind of bound small group within the large group of translators and support each other. There is nothing wrong with this in principal. That's the main purpose of team work: to work together and support each other. What I see is that when there are two answers almost the same and one has a better explanation than the other (and was first in time), still this answerer doesn't get the recognition if he/she is not part of this group. Why? The "group members" support each other and they agree to the answer of the "group member". In a long run this will hurt all of us. If the answers will be open to all of us I think that it will be completely different.

It is said that after 72 hours, the question remains open and moves into the selection phase. What I am experiencing is that the word is chosen by that time or still it is not open to the users with the field of expertise among their specialty or working ones.

I don't know if I explain myself well enough but feel free to ask any question for further explanation.

Thank you for taking your time to assist me with my concern.

Klemi
[Edited at 2009-06-06 01:49 GMT]


 

Monika Coulson  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:33
Member (2001)
English to Albanian
+ ...
Off Topic - To Klemi regarding her concern Jun 12, 2009

Klemi wrote:



... I feel that some translators have created a kind of bound small group within the large group of translators and support each other. There is nothing wrong with this in principal. That's the main purpose of team work: to work together and support each other. What I see is that when there are two answers almost the same and one has a better explanation than the other (and was first in time), still this answerer doesn't get the recognition if he/she is not part of this group. Why? The "group members" support each other and they agree to the answer of the "group member". In a long run this will hurt all of us. If the answers will be open to all of us I think that it will be completely different.

Klemi


Dear Klemi,
Thank you for voicing your concern. However, I am sorry you feel this way. As an Albanian community, we have come a long way. IMHO, we have passed the point that we agree/disagree or give points to those we know or favor. I think that our community has raised to a higher level and an asker knows and recognizes the best and the most helpful answer. IMHO, this is the only reason why an asker awards KudoZ points to an answerer.

First, based on KudoZ Rule 3.7 (http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.7#3.7 ) we are not allowed to make any comments on the decision of an asker regarding their choices of the most helpful answer.

I truly believe that the askers in our sub-community are professionals and they choose the answer that was most helpful to them. It is that simple sometimes. As far as alliances (as you claim above), we need to be careful when we say things like this: If it is an isolated case, then please feel free to notify ProZ.com staff or me as a KudoZ moderator. If you feel that this happens often, then I would re-consider that thought and look at the answers themselves, rather than looking at the answerers.

Again, please feel free to contact me personally if you have any further questions or inquiries.

As a fairly new member, I would like to thank you for your continuing contribution and support here on ProZ.com. Please feel free to contact me with any concerns that you may have.

Have a great day,
Monikaicon_smile.gif


 

Fabiana Papastefani-Pezzoni  Identity Verified
Romania
Local time: 23:33
Member (2003)
English to Albanian
+ ...
The situation Jun 13, 2009

Hello Enrique and all,

I will insist to express my concern on limiting the fields, as a result cutting off linguists and opportunity to hear valid ideas, or better to say the shaping of it.

1) There is nothing wrong with probably limiting, but the problem is that in 3-4 cases there have been terms that not only did not belong so strictly to the one given, but due to the language and country specifics much more translators can give their contribution.

2) I would very much like to see the "battle field" opened to all after 72 hours, why not. I will, any way, stay away from areas that I do not know so well, such as geology for example, or chemical industry. So will the others, Enrique. This will give you also more chance to see more insight.

3) As per choosing based on the agrees only, I only would like to express the concern that the staff or system (do not know who choses) will chose blindly, since the discussions are all in Albanian. There is a lot of room for mistakes so we could probably think for some ways of improvement with this respect. We care a lot about the glossary term entered dear Quiqueicon_smile.gif, you probably are more interested to see the members filling their profiles in order to participate and I think here's already one reason as to why we see this tool from very different approaches.

I would very much like to be able to discuss with you and all our colleagues this feature in order to find the best use and function of it, what do you think?

As per the grouping or alliances mentioned by Klemi, I am sorry about the impression created. If Klemi has some time, she may as well check the kudoz history in our language combination, where every one can see that we have agreed and disagreed with each other very often, we have expressed our concerns about each others ideas and very often supported the colleague's entry even where we have participated, after we have found our colleague's idea much better then ours.

I am not saying that this phenomena has never existed, I am saying that the natural selection of (non)professional linguists has taken us to this group today where now are proud of ourselves and have the courage to say, when necessary: "Oh, I like your term better then mine" - http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_albanian/furniture_household_appliances/3296021-overhead_table.html

At last, one can any time add also a discussion if he/she has something to add/discuss about a (mistaken) translation and I am sure every one is interested to know from colleagues that know more or better about a term, or simply have an option. On the GBK that I could not enter a answer I have entered a discussion entry.

I wish you all a great week end. Sunny but windy here.

Kind regards,

[Edited at 2009-06-13 12:26 GMT]


 

Klementina Shahini
United States
Local time: 16:33
Member (2009)
English to Albanian
+ ...
Your assistance is appreciated Jun 14, 2009

Dear Monika,

Thank you for the respond and your opening to listen to my concerns. It is so nice of you to give your time for such matters. I really appreciate and mean it. All I can say is that I will consider the idea of writing to you in the future if I need to. As of today I addressed my concerns specifically to the proZ.com staff and I was very satisfied with the answer I got.

Another thing that I would like to talk about is my membership at proZ.com. It is true that I am a new member here but not in the field. My great experience of being part of other great professional communities like proZ.com will make me a great asset to proZ.com. Agrees and disagrees are normal and I respect them because they take us in a higher level in the field and of course give us the best shot as far as for the answers. To disagree with one or the other thing doesn't mean that I ever doubted and disrespected anybody’s professionalism and I will never do it. Definitely, this is not my position. Nobody is perfect, including me. We all make mistakes, we fix them, and we move on towards our goal. Knowing that I am part of such wonderful, great, qualified, professional community where we all understand and respect each other makes me happy and proud. This is another motivation and reason to work harder.

I am still learning a lot about proZ.com and its community by browsing around the web site and reading a lot. Regarding your comment about rule 3.7: I don't see myself making comments of that nature. First of all because it is not me and secondly the rule says so. My parents taught me that I have to obey the rules and authorities no matter what, you like them or not. I don't think that agree and disagree and the explanation about your opinion is against the rule. I have tried to be very professional in this aspect. If you think that in one or the other case I broke these rules, I apologize. It has not been my intention.

Finally, I would like to say that what we are doing here is not all about me and you or us as members of proZ.com. It is bigger than that. In some ways we are serving a bigger community, our Albanian community in general by offering the best of us. Let's do it and do it right.

Thank you again.

Best Regards,
Klemi


 


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