Do you think this is wrong or correct translation?
Thread poster: fidaa2007

fidaa2007
Jordan
Local time: 05:48
English to Arabic
+ ...
Jun 29, 2012

Hi,
This is a line from a poem. The poem is already translated and published.
مصابيح لم يسرج الزيت فيها وتمسسه نار

The translation of this line is:
(Like lamps whose oil does not burn, where no flame touches).

I'm sure there is something wrong with the translation. I would like to share this with you all. So, please let me know if you agree or disagree with me.

Thanks in advance,
Fidaa


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Dr. Günther orth
Germany
Local time: 04:48
Arabic to German
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lamps Jun 29, 2012

I think it should mean:
Lamps whose oil was never lit and hasn't been touched by a fire

[Bearbeitet am 2012-06-29 13:40 GMT]


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fidaa2007
Jordan
Local time: 05:48
English to Arabic
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TOPIC STARTER
lamps Jun 29, 2012

Thanks for your reply, Dr. Orth.
But,
It says : وتمسسه نار
which means that whose oil never lit even if fire or flame touches.

Do you think I'm right?

Fidaa


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Ali M. Alsaqqa  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:48
English to Arabic
I am not able to understand the source! Jun 29, 2012

Are you sure about this? The Arabic itself seems weak for me.

[Edited at 2012-06-29 13:53 GMT]


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fidaa2007
Jordan
Local time: 05:48
English to Arabic
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TOPIC STARTER
This is the Arabic text. Jun 29, 2012

وكَرْمٌ عساليجه العاقراتُ شرايينُ تَمَّوزَ عَبْرَ المدينة
شَرَايينُ في كلِّ دارٍ ، وسجنٍ ، ومقهى
وفي كلِّ مستشفياتِ المجانينِ ، في كل مَبْغّى لَعَشْتَارَ ... يُطلِعْنَ أزهارَهُن الهجينة
مصابيحَ لم يُسْرج الزَّيْتُ فيها وتَمْسَسْهُ نارُ


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Dr. Günther orth
Germany
Local time: 04:48
Arabic to German
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it's clear Jun 29, 2012

the meaning is:
لم يُسْرج الزَّيْتُ فيها (ولم) تَمْسَسْهُ نارُ

the second لم was omitted


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fidaa2007
Jordan
Local time: 05:48
English to Arabic
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is there any Arabic grammatical rule? Jun 29, 2012

Dr. Orth,
Is there any grammatical rule you relied on to support your claim.
If, please let me know it.


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Dr. Günther orth
Germany
Local time: 04:48
Arabic to German
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i can't cite any "rule" on this... Jun 29, 2012

... but this seems logical to me, because تَمْسَسْهُ can only come like this after لم:
لا تَمَسُّهُ، لم تَمْسَسْهُ
but as the saying goes: المعنى في بطن الشاعر
Good luck!


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Abdallah Ali  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:48
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English to Arabic
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مُشكلتان Jun 29, 2012


أرى أنّ المُشكلة الأولى تكمن في ترجمة "لم" حيث تعكس الترجمة الإنجليزية استخدام "لا" وليس "لم" كما صحّحها الدكتور أورث.

المشكلة الثانية هي كما طرحها الدكتور ففي اللغة العربية "أسرجَ المصباحَ" تعني أوقده أو أشعله. وهو مصباح زيت وكيف يُمكن للمرء إشعال مصباح الزيت دون أن تمسَّ النارُ زيته؟ إذن فالمقصود أنّ المصباح لم يُشعل ولم تمسَّ النارُ زيته.



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fidaa2007
Jordan
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This is my interpretation!! Jun 29, 2012

Abdullah,
You'll find the answer to your question in the following verse from Quran:

اللَّهُ نُورُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ مَثَلُ نُورِهِ كَمِشْكَاةٍ فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ الْمِصْبَاحُ فِي زُجَاجَةٍ الزُّجَاجَةُ كَأَنَّهَا كَوْكَبٌ دُرِّيٌّ يُوقَدُ مِن شَجَرَةٍ مُّبَارَكَةٍ زَيْتُونِةٍ لَّا شَرْقِيَّةٍ وَلَا غَرْبِيَّةٍ يَكَادُ زَيْتُهَا يُضِيءُ وَلَوْ لَمْ تَمْسَسْهُ نَارٌ نُّورٌ عَلَى نُورٍ يَهْدِي اللَّهُ لِنُورِهِ مَن يَشَاءُ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ }النور35

In the verse:
Lamp lit from a blessed tree, whose oil is nighly luminous, even no flame touches.

This is because the light in the verse is the light of heavens and earth. While,

In the poem:
Lamps whose oil does not burn, even the flame touches.

The poet referred to Tammuz and Ishtar, god and goddess of fertility and resurrection and associte them with meanings contrary to their original meaning. He associte Tammuz with sterility rather than fertility. The sterile veins of Tammuz are the branches of the vineyards which bloom to give ignoble flowers and these flowers are loke lamps without light.
مصابيح لم يسرج الزيت فيها و تمسسه نار
The poet referred to the Mythical figures as well as the Quranic (modified) verse to give contrary meaning of the originals.

What do you think?


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Dr. Günther orth
Germany
Local time: 04:48
Arabic to German
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Mabruk! Jun 30, 2012

So, Fidaa, as the starter of the topic, has finally found to the correct interpretation by herself. Yes, this is without doubt an intertextual reference to the Qur'an.

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Abdallah Ali  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:48
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English to Arabic
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Poem's analysis Jun 30, 2012

Hi,

The verse's context is different and has a few interpretations. It clearly states وَلَوْ لَمْ تَمْسَسْهُ نَارٌ.

http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&bk_no=49&ID=1271

Anyway, I came across this attempt to analyse the poet's reference to Tammuz in his poems with particular reference to the one in question.

http://arabvoice.com/24890/



... لا تظهر الأسطورة التموزية بشكل واضح في أغلب قصائد السياب ...

... شرايين في كل دار و سجن و مقهى و سجن و بار و في كل ملهى و في كل مستشفيات المجانين في كل مبغي لعشتار … يطلعن أزهارهن الهجينة : مصابيح لم يسرج الزيت فيها و تمسسه النار[9] فكأنّ الشاعر هنا يصاب بالدّهشة والذهول من فعل أبناء القرى الذين يتركون مسقط رأسهم والقرى الجميلة والخضراء ليذهبوا إلى المدينة المريبة بظنّهم أنّهم يذهبون إلى الفردوس و لكن ينظر الشاعر فإنّهم و بفعلهم هذا قد اختاروا الهلاك و الجحيم بلا شك. فأبناء القرى يقدّمون أنفسهم قرابين على مذبح المدينة و يهلكون أنفسهم لكي تزهو المدينة ...


HTH


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