Diverse issues raised in previous thread
Thread poster: Nesrin

Nesrin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:54
English to Arabic
+ ...
Apr 25, 2006

For some reason, I am unable to reply to the previous thread started by Ala (enshrine) - the reply buttons have disappeared...
If that's ok, I'll just post a few comments here - sorry if that's irregular...

Ala, you've raised a few diverse issues here...

First of all, with regards to Kudoz frustrations, having had my fair share of them, my suggestion would be not to take things to seriously or too much to heart. For one thing, Kudoz doesn't really allow us to have proper conversations, so comments are usually short and abrupt, and can often be misunderstood. That is not to say that anyone you suspect of being rude is a victim of misunderstanding. Kudoz is open to anyone who calls him-/herself a translator, so, like in the real world, there will be rude people, bullies and even psychopaths. Experience has shown that arguing with these people is useless and can be a bit disruptive if it takes place on the Kudoz pages. That's when it's a good idea to get in touch with moderators who will usually sort matters out.

Moderators can also help when you spot blatant plagiarists, or "parasites" who copy other people's answers., esp. in the case of repeat offenders. If it's a one-off case, I wouldn't bother much.

Finally, the point you made about the organisation of our profession, to keep out the unprofessionals... again, it's an open market, and if there's an undiscerning client who doesn't bother checking the credentials of the translator, and is only looking for someone to do his 10,000 word job in one day for 0.002 USD per word or whatever, then who are we to complain -
الله يهني سعيد بسعيدة
as we say.
Serious clients may resort to such a translator once, but they'll quickly learn from their mistake, and the next time they need a translator, will make a proper search for translators with experience, professional affiliations, references etc. And as you said, natural selection will do the rest.



Nesrin


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Fuad Yahya  Identity Verified
Arabic
+ ...
The previous thread is locked Apr 25, 2006

I have locked the previous thread because the tenor was personal and not constructive. I will leave this thread open so long as it continues in its present vein. Thank you for sharing your experience.

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Nesrin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:54
English to Arabic
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I can be a bit slow sometimes :-) Apr 25, 2006

Actually, it did occur to me, a few seconds after sending my message, that the thread must had been closed...
Next time I'll know!



Nesrin


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Ala Rabie  Identity Verified
Egypt
Local time: 18:54
Japanese to Arabic
+ ...
It is not about KudoZ. It is our profession that is being threatened. Apr 25, 2006

Nesrin, I totally agree with you regarding KudoZ. In a matter of fact, I did not start that topic to parade a parasite; I only used it as a very close instance of what I am talking about, i.e. parasites in our profession.

But since Fuad is vehemently insisting on uniliterally judging my intentions;
  • The Disagree option is not a tool used to shun or oust a peer [response]. It is an indicator targeting the Asker to inform her/him that this particular Answer is not correct for the reasons provided therein.
  • A number of disagreeing comments, of my comments for instance, are intended to put things in place; people who are stealing others answers should be exposed to the Asker so that she/he would not pick and give Kudoz points to a parasite instead of someone else who tired herself/himself out collecting data to back up her/his answer.

    Justice.

A quick visit to the Japanese Kudoz section would demonstrate how the disagree option works perfectly to eleminate both mistaken and parasitical answers.

Nothing is taken personal whatsoever. Afterall, the Asker would only pick one answer. Also, this is not a kindergarten or Arab tragedy where you call upon God/ot to solve your problems. This is a place where professionals work. A workspace. And I am willing to defend MY workspace.

A mistaken answer should be noted so, and the only way to do it is the red color of a disagreeing comment. Otherwise there would not be any indicator that this particular answer is not correct.

As for parasites, parasiticidal action is a must. in Kudoz, it is the disagree option.



Now away from Kudoz. My suggestion was not to form an organization for professional translators, Nesrin, but to provide a standard-setting solution as a guidance to clients and official bodies. An ISO for translators dealing with the Arabic language.

It would not be based on tests as translators organizations do, but based on Quality--Quality Control for example.

Take a look at the Wikipedia entry. See how the ISO works? This is what I am talking about, Nesrin



One last point: about the consequences of letting parasites/leechers loose, and I am being cynical about this; the rates in the ME (native Arab translators) affect the global rates for Arabic translations altogether. The rates are unbelievably low, even via Japanese clients, for projects provided via portals like ProZ where many ME translators are available, and piles lowy-low low rates are proposed, majorly by parasites/leechers.

Trial and Error is a waste of time.
A solution is a must!


Sore ja,

~Ala
alamnesis.com



[Edited at 2006-04-25 11:51]


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Fuad Yahya  Identity Verified
Arabic
+ ...
The words you choose reflect your attitude and affect how others perceive you Apr 25, 2006

enshrine wrote:

As for parasites, parasiticidal action is a must.

. . .

about the consequences of letting parasites/leechers loose



I trust that you are capable of addressing your issues without referring to your colleagues using this kind of language, which is degrading, unprofessional, and unacceptable. The privilege of using the forum is contingent on observing a professional standard.


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Ala Rabie  Identity Verified
Egypt
Local time: 18:54
Japanese to Arabic
+ ...
But they are not 'colleagues', Fuad! Apr 25, 2006

I would never address anyone with such term unless they happen to act in a parasitical way. People who 'steal' others' work and efforts to provide a decent workplace, and moreover attribute this work to themselves, are the reason why copyrights existed in the first place.

The professional term used for such people is 'Leechers'; people who snatch away our work, efforts, and time as well. People who taint our profession and the way we are trying hard to represent it to others.

Or do you support the existence and haven-izing such people/activities, Fuad?

Frankly, Fuad, I do not know what you are THREATENING me for; I have observed a problem, described it, provided a definition for it as well as a real-life sample, and then suggested a possible solution. Where did I go wrong that you threaten me and wave the disciplinary schtick at my face for? Calling things with their proper, 'professional' names?

Also why are you insisting on minimalizing the topic to one KudoZ incident? Gott! You are not taking it as a personal offence, are you, Fuad!?

Please keep the discussion on the global view of the topic. What happens in Kudoz was provided a sample for a Global phenomena.

~Ala
alamnesis.com


Fuad Yahya wrote:
I trust that you are capable of addressing your issues without referring to your colleagues using this kind of language, which is degrading, unprofessional, and unacceptable. The privilege of using the forum is contingent on observing a professional standard.




[Edited at 2006-04-25 13:07]


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Enrique
Local time: 13:54
SITE STAFF
All posters must follow the forum rules Apr 25, 2006

enshrine wrote:

Frankly, Fuad, I do not know what you are THREATENING me for; I have observed a problem, described it, provided a definition for it as well as a real-life sample, and then suggested a possible solution. Where did I go wrong that you threaten me and wave the disciplinary schtick at my face for? Calling things with their proper, 'professional' names?


Fuad Yahya wrote:
I trust that you are capable of addressing your issues without referring to your colleagues using this kind of language, which is degrading, unprofessional, and unacceptable. The privilege of using the forum is contingent on observing a professional standard.




Hi enshrine,

I don't believe Fuad is threatening you at all, he is making reference to:


The Forum Rules of Etiquette have been created to preserve a pleasant, professional and results-oriented atmosphere for discussion. By posting a message in the forums, you agree to be bound by these Rules.
http://www.proz.com/forumrules/


Among forum rules please let me bring here rule #8:


8. No attacks
Personal attacks on groups or individuals, discussing the personal behavior of other users or inhibiting any person in any way from enjoying the service, is prohibited.


Regards,
Enrique Cavalitto


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Ala Rabie  Identity Verified
Egypt
Local time: 18:54
Japanese to Arabic
+ ...
No personal attack intended Apr 25, 2006

Enrique Cavalitto wrote:
(...)Among forum rules please let me bring here rule #8:


8. No attacks
Personal attacks on groups or individuals, discussing the personal behavior of other users or inhibiting any person in any way from enjoying the service, is prohibited.

(...)


Thank you very much, Enrique, for pointing that out. However, Rule#8 is referring to personal attacks performed against the participants in the thread. Otherwise, all the criticism written everywhere about fraud companies, or agencies paying low-rates, would be included under Rule#8, which does not make sense as you may see.

However, let me make it clear: I am by no means attacking a specific person or a group; I am discussing a criminal activity that affects our profession, and suggesting a solution for it.

Thank you again, Enrique.

~Ala
alamnesis.com


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Enrique
Local time: 13:54
SITE STAFF
Thanks to you! Apr 25, 2006

enshrine wrote:


8. No attacks
Personal attacks on groups or individuals, discussing the personal behavior of other users or inhibiting any person in any way from enjoying the service, is prohibited.


Thank you very much, Enrique, for pointing that out. However, Rule#8 is referring to personal attacks performed against the participants in the thread. Otherwise, all the criticism written everywhere about fraud companies, or agencies paying low-rates, would be included under Rule#8, which does not make sense as you may see.



Thanks for your understanding. The forums are a meeting place of ideas and by bringing here our diverse visions we all learn from each other.

Please let me point out that rule 8 is not limited to participant in the thread but to site users in general. I think you can state your point without using terms such as "parasite" or "leecher". Strong ideas should talk for themselves without needing harsh words

Again, thanks for your understanding and for your kind words,
Enrique


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