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الاعتراض أو عدم الموافقة عند التصويت على الإجابات المقترحة
Thread poster: ahmadwadan.com

ahmadwadan.com  Identity Verified
Kuwait
Local time: 09:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
May 8, 2006

لقد لفت انتباهي ندرة أو الامتناع عن رفض/عدم الموافقة على الإجابات المقترحة عند تصويتنا على إجابات بعضنا البعض في موقع بروز ونقوم على استحياء باختيار "neutral" وليس "disagree" على الرغم من أن بعض الإجابات قد تكون خاطئة تماما ونكتفي في هذا الصدد بإعطاء صوتنا للإجابة التي نراها صحيحة "agree" وقد يؤدي هذا إلى ارتباك السائل في بعض الأحيان فيختلط عليه الأم وقد يختار الإجابة الخاطئة...دون أن أطيل أود أن أركز موضوع المناقشة على ما يلي:

- هل نتخوف من رفض بعض الإجابات عند التصويت خوفا من رفض انتقامي (revenge disagree) من الشخص الذي رفضنا إجابته؟
- هل تتم عملية الرفض، إن وجدت، بشكل موضوعي مهني أم أن هذا بعيد عن ثقافتنا؟
- هل رفض بعض الإجابات فيه مصلحة أم لا؟
- هل الأولى هو الامتناع عن الرفض وإعطاء صوتنا للإجابة التي نراها صحيحة فقط؟
- هل تدعم/تدعمين الرفض في حالات الإجابات الخاطئة؟

الهدف من طرح هذا الموضوع هو الارتقاء بالمشاركات في هذا الموقع والاستفادة منها إلى أقصى حد مع تغيير عقلياتنا للأفضل، إذا تطلب الأمر، والتعامل بشكل مهني يستفيد منه الجميع خاصة وأن الكثير من اللغات الأخرى كالإنجليزية مثلا تكون فيها مسألة رفض إجابة المشاركين لبعضهم البعض أمرا عاديا جدا.

مع تحياتي
أحمد ودن
Ahmad Wadan
Project Manager & Senior Translator
www.arablish.com


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Zeinab Asfour  Identity Verified
Jordan
Local time: 09:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
AGREE :) May 8, 2006

Dear Ahmad,
Since I became an active member on proz I have noticed this phenomenon! The fear of disagreeing with someone's answer. Hence, I have aquired the character of my former colleagues assuming that this the right thing to do.
Yet, I do believe when someone disagrees with another members answer, he or she must support their decision with references and evidence.

I suppose it's fear of revenge, becoming an outcast on proz, and on other members' black list!

Another point I would like to bring to everyones attention, that there should be a penalty for someone who copies other member's answers, or rephrases them, then reposts them as his or hers own answer after more than 15 or 20 minutes! I think that there should be fairness and no manipulation.

I am really astonished at what people do to get points!

Regards,
Zeinab Asfour



[Edited at 2006-05-08 08:43]

[Edited at 2006-05-08 08:45]

[Edited at 2006-05-08 08:56]


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Ahmed Dahman  Identity Verified
Egypt
Local time: 08:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
ولكن لماذا الرفض الانتقامي؟! May 8, 2006

الاخوة والاخوات الكرام
سلام الله عليكم ورحمته وبركاته
لقد صادفني الأمر كثيراً , فقد رأيت الاجابة الخاطئة وايضا اجبت إجابة خاطئة , ورأيت رد فعل المترجمين تجاه إجابتي ولا أتذكر سوى تلك المرة التي قد حصلت فيها على تصويت disagree وذلك على يد الأخت زينب عصفور بعد أن أوضحت السبب مع البرهان مما كان له أثراً إيجابياً عليّ كمترجم وأيضاً على السائل حتى لا يضل.
أنا اتفق تماماً مع الأخت زينب أن الكثير يخشون كما ذكر الاخ الفاضل أحمد ودن من الرفض الانتقامي وذلك لاعتقاد الكثير أن المترجم لا يخطأ وإن أخطأ فهذا خير دليل على عدم صلاحيته للعمل كمترجم ومن هنا اعتربها الكثير أنها قد تكون سب علني أو اتهام صريح !
الجميع يخطأ ويصيب , والبعض يتعلم من أخطائه , والقليل يعترف بخطئه.
أما هؤلاء الذين يسرقون (إذا صح التعبير) إجابات الاخرين وذلك في سبيل الحصول على نقاط , فهذا أسلوب غير شريف ولكن كيف نميز بين هؤلاء وبين مترجم تأخر في إجابته حتى صادف أن أجاب إجابة كتلك التي اُجيبت من عشر دقائق أو أكثر؟ أنا أوافق بشدة على رأي الاخت زينب على أن هؤلاء يجب أن يعاقبوا في حالة ما إذا استطعنا أن نميز بين الفريقين. حتى لا يظلم أحد.
جزاكم الله خيراً
والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

أحمد دهمان
http://www.proz.com/pro/129263


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Nesrin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
What a coincidence! May 8, 2006

(Sorry to be replying in English, but as you see the moment you put an English word in the Arabic sentence it gets completely jumbled up)

Yes, what a coincidence! Just as I was reading this forum topic, I received a disagree on an answer I submitted a few minutes ago!

This disagree gives us a perfect example of why "disagrees" have acquired such a bad name on Proz! (Please check: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1346791 )
The thing is, so many people have no idea how and when it would be appropriate to disagree. In this instance, the colleague disagreed with ALL THREE ANSWERS because he though he had a better suggestion (which he mentioned in his disagrees), but not in a separate answer!

Disagrees are very important for the asker, but they should be used very wisely. Only disagree when the answer is blatantly WRONG, and when it would be a terrible mistake if the asker picked that answer. But if you don't really like it that much, and you prefer another answer, then just agree with the answer you like or suggest your own. If everyone used the "disagree" like that, nobody would be offended. As Ahmed Dahman said, a disagree is a good opportunity to learn, and to think things over. Of course, if you disagree with a disagree, you have the right to reply. That's the beauty of freedom of speech


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atef Sharia  Identity Verified
Jordan
Local time: 09:43
Member (2008)
Portuguese to Arabic
+ ...
Give value to your "DISAGREE" May 8, 2006

I agree with Nesrin, "Only disagree when the answer is blatantly WRONG"

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Zeinab Asfour  Identity Verified
Jordan
Local time: 09:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
comment! May 8, 2006

What gets to me, are those who disagree without supporting their opinion and believe a 100% that it is absolutely right!

All I ask for, is to supposrt the disagree with evidence just as I had mentioned earlier..Or like Nesrin said, if they don't have reference to the disagree, then they may as well post an individual asnwer of their own..as simple as that!

Agree with Nesrin and Mr.Atef..


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ahmadwadan.com  Identity Verified
Kuwait
Local time: 09:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
الاعتراض ظاهرة صحية May 8, 2006

أنا أرى أن الاعتراض ظاهرة صحية ومفيدة إذا تمت في إطار مهني بعيد عن التعصب للرأي والتمحور حول الذات وأتفق معكم جميعا في أن من يقوم بالاعتراض أو الرفض أن يدعم رأيه بالدليل كما تفضلتم.

[Edited at 2006-05-08 21:33]


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Raouf Malek
Local time: 07:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
"ط§ظ„ط§ط¹طھط±ط§ط¶ ط£ظˆ ط¹ط¯ظ… ط§ظ„ظ…ظˆط§ظپظ‚ط© ط¹ظ†ط¯ ط§ظ„طھطµظˆظٹطھ ط¹ظ„ظ‰ ط§ظ„ط¥ط¬ط§ط¨ط§طھ ط§ظ„ظ…ظ May 9, 2006

What annoys me, are those who disagree without supporting their opinion or answer for the sake of arguments.
All I asked for is to support the disagree with evidence or explanations otherwise they can post their individual answer of their own as simple as that! And it is up to the asker to select the suitable answer that fits better his needs and context.

Raouf Malek
Anglo Arab Translation Services - Ireland


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Mona Ragaei
Kuwait
Local time: 09:43
Arabic
+ ...
No doubt May 9, 2006

There is no doubt that "disagree" function is very healthy but the most important thing here is that it should be considered "healthy" by ALL proz members.

I believe our discussion now will be good beginning for all proz members to start using this function "in the right way" of course" i.e using it when there is no doubt that the answer is 100% wrong for example “reversing the meaning or applying to different field other than the scope of interest of the asker …etc” in addition to providing explanation or source of information so as to be make it professional “disagree”.


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Zeinab Asfour  Identity Verified
Jordan
Local time: 09:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
?? May 9, 2006

Raouf Malek wrote:

What annoys me, are those who disagree without supporting their opinion or answer for the sake of arguments.
All I asked for is to support the disagree with evidence or explanations otherwise they can post their individual answer of their own as simple as that! And it is up to the asker to select the suitable answer that fits better his needs and context.

Raouf Malek
Anglo Arab Translation Services - Ireland



Hey everyone...SEE what I mean!? This act supports my opinion! Not just copying answers but copying posts as well......!?!?!


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Nesrin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
Wow May 9, 2006

Zeinab Asfour wrote:

Hey everyone...SEE what I mean!? This act supports my opinion! Not just copying answers but copying posts as well......!?!?!


Amazing, Zeinab, isn't it?? One can only hope that this kind of plagiarism was done subconsciously, because he admired your views so much!

Reminds me of a story I read recently
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4967864.stm


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Ahmed Dahman  Identity Verified
Egypt
Local time: 08:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
This decision has to be fulfilled May 9, 2006

That sounds so nice. The "disagree" strategy is unanimously approved and everybody is ready from now on to disagree in a democratic way with references and evidences. Please give me the chance and the pleasure to be the first member to be honoured for being bureaucratic. Ladies and gentelmen, I do disagree with you all with no reason)
Thank you.

Warm regards
Ahmed dahman
Bureaucratic EnglishArabic Translator.


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Zeinab Asfour  Identity Verified
Jordan
Local time: 09:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
Attracting attention, perhaps! May 9, 2006

Dear Ahmad,
You do not seriously call this act HEALTHY!

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1344301

PLease enlighten me!


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ahmadwadan.com  Identity Verified
Kuwait
Local time: 09:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
مجرد صدفة May 9, 2006

Zeinab Asfour wrote:

Dear Ahmad,
You do not seriously call this act HEALTHY!

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1344301

PLease enlighten me!


بالطبع لا...لكن ما يحدث مجرد صدفة أو تزامن غير مقصود.
لقد قمت بطرح هذا الموضوع قبل هذا السيل العرم من "رفض الإجابات" الذي يقوم به بعض الأعضاء.
طرحي لهذا الموضوع كان بشكل عام دون الإشارة لأي مشاركة على وجه الخصوص أو التنويه عن المشاركات السلبية لبعض الأعضاء.

إن العضو الذي يقوم برفض أو الاعتراض على أي إجابة دون ذكر سبب وجيه أو لمجرد أن إجابة ما لا تعجبه لا يؤذي إلا نفسه.

بالمناسبة...ابنتي "جنة" عمرها سنتين وأربعة أشهر تقريبا وكلما قلت لها شيئا ترد: (لأّه) بفتح اللام وتشديد الألف (هذه هي الظاهرة الصحية) حيث أن ابنتي كبرت وأصبح لها رأي وتعترض على كل ما أقوله لها ولا أطلب منها ذكر دليل على رفضها.

لكن هذا بالطبع لا ينطبق على المترجمين الرافضين المحترفين.


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Zeinab Asfour  Identity Verified
Jordan
Local time: 09:43
English to Arabic
+ ...
"إن بعد العسر يسرا" May 9, 2006

Dear Ahmad,

I know that this was a "صدفة"
But people who come barging in, and start disagreeing left, right and center, with ALL the other member's and their answers is something that must be put to an end!
Memebers who are doing so, have no scientific basis, neither do they supposrt their DISAGREES with references.

What, or who gives them the authority to do so?
Shouldn't they be reported?
What makes them think they know it ALL!
When will this be a site for PROZ, seriously!
و تكون اسم على مسمى و ليست مجرد صفحة إلكترونية يشارك فيها كل من هب و دب، ممن لديهم القناعة التامة بأنهم هم على صواب، والجميع مخطئون؟

Thanks Abu Jannah for posting this forum, at least we had the chance to express our anger and frustration at such behaviour...

By the way, beautiful name mashALLAH..may her life be a Jannah on earth and in heaven

Best of luck everyone...


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