| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Would you inform the endcustomer? Thread poster: Heinrich Pesch
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T_Herrmann (X) 
Local time: 11:29
German to English
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| Generally I agree with Klaus and Harry_B, but... | Nov 15, 2003 |
and please all, consider this hypothetical, aside from an ethical standpoint where I would have to say contacting end-clients is really really bad, what I translate is my property until I am paid for it, and as such almost all European jurisdictions will grant to me what is known in Germany as "Eigentumsvorbehalt". See it like this, I finance a car and I sell it to a third party before I have paid it off, what happens if I stop paying the bank? They'll come and get the car, no matter who's drivi... See more and please all, consider this hypothetical, aside from an ethical standpoint where I would have to say contacting end-clients is really really bad, what I translate is my property until I am paid for it, and as such almost all European jurisdictions will grant to me what is known in Germany as "Eigentumsvorbehalt". See it like this, I finance a car and I sell it to a third party before I have paid it off, what happens if I stop paying the bank? They'll come and get the car, no matter who's driving it right now.
I am definitely not advocating approaching end clients, I just see a bit of an unfairness if I should be bound to an agreement that the other party has been breaching to begin with. I am a vendor, I have delivered, and if I get the feeling of being intentionally ripped of I will use the means legally available to me to recover what is mine. After all I am not a wellfare institution giving out interest-free loans to agencies who can't get their crap together. Do you think my health-care provider will ask me why I can't pay my bill by the first of the month? No, exactly. Too many translators have something I would almost consider a hush-hush victim mentality (no offense folks). Of course I don't mean to say pester the client if payment is two weeks late, but with a substantial amount due for months on end I would actually consider withdrawing my consent to the use of my intellectual property.
If you don't care crap about harming me, why would I worry about if my attempt to collect what's mine would harm you?
Maybe I just don't like being abused or anything, but clearly my motto is live and let live, if you change the rule of this agreement unreasonably for your advantage, then don't complain about the outcome. It's up to the party in default if it will be "I scratch your back you scratch mine", or you screw me and I'll screw you.
Otherwise complete agreement with Roomy!
I think I have to elaborate this a bit more to avoid being misunderstood. What I wrote concerns not agencies being in default for two or three weeks because the end client hasn't paid yet, but the deadbeats who know from the beginning that they will try to squeeze as much words out of you as they can already knowing they will pay 50% of invoice after 3 and a half month to avoid the bill collectors.
[Edited at 2003-11-15 01:33]
[Edited at 2003-11-15 01:40] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 12:29
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Most of you missed my point | Nov 15, 2003 |
Sorry, if I did not make myself clear enough.
We all know there are agencies out there which take advantage of newcomers, offer cheap translations to clients (even on the net with ridiculously low rates), promise willing translators the rates they ask for but do not pay.
Should we do more than just refuse to work for these agencies? End clients do not read recources like Blue Boards etc.
| | | | T_Herrmann (X)
Local time: 11:29
German to English
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Sorry, it took me some time to catch on, but in this case I would definitely have to agree with Klaus.
To go back to the car-example what would you think about car dealer A, approaching you saying car dealer B hasn't paid the manufacturer?
Probably something like a) it's none of my business, b) I couldn't care less, c) don't make business with A as all you will get is being bad-mouthed behind your back.
Now that of course would be against any business ethic... See more Sorry, it took me some time to catch on, but in this case I would definitely have to agree with Klaus.
To go back to the car-example what would you think about car dealer A, approaching you saying car dealer B hasn't paid the manufacturer?
Probably something like a) it's none of my business, b) I couldn't care less, c) don't make business with A as all you will get is being bad-mouthed behind your back.
Now that of course would be against any business ethics imaginable. As a matter of fact, in most countries you you may well get sued if it ever were to come out that agency soandso did not get an assignment because of a translator making "bad propaganda" against them.
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Sorry, if I did not make myself clear enough.
We all know there are agencies out there which take advantage of newcomers, offer cheap translations to clients (even on the net with ridiculously low rates), promise willing translators the rates they ask for but do not pay.
Should we do more than just refuse to work for these agencies? End clients do not read recources like Blue Boards etc. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ildiko Santana
United States
Local time: 02:29
Member (2002)
Hungarian to English
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MODERATOR | apples and pears | Nov 15, 2003 |
I would have to agree with the majority here. All I wish to add is that getting the end client involved would be nothing more than a way of cheap revenge with a less than promising outcome; close to the situation when you run to your teacher if little Bobby pulled your hair, but much more serious.
By doing so, you might find yourself in a juicy libel suit, and righteously! One thing is your agency's non-payment, another issue is their false accusations of their client not paying them. Appl... See more I would have to agree with the majority here. All I wish to add is that getting the end client involved would be nothing more than a way of cheap revenge with a less than promising outcome; close to the situation when you run to your teacher if little Bobby pulled your hair, but much more serious.
By doing so, you might find yourself in a juicy libel suit, and righteously! One thing is your agency's non-payment, another issue is their false accusations of their client not paying them. Apples and pears. It would be like an ex wife or husband reporting the other party to the police for robbery when child support stops coming. The agency's not paying you has nothing to do with them being (or not being) paid by their customer. You may go to small claims court or whatever in this case, you may turn to a collection agency, but to the end client? No way.
Even if your agency has been less than ethical in this case, your lowering to their level could quite likely put YOU in a bad light. There is no guarantee the end client will drop your agency, but they most likely will insist you never get involved again in any future assignments with them.
In short: don't do it! ▲ Collapse
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chance (X)
French to Chinese
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Heinrich Pesch wrote:
... Should I draw the attention of Firm B to the postings about A in translation related forums?..
If B is an agency or otherwise engaged in the translation market, there is no reason why you should not do any free advertising for mailing lists about payment practices.
It might be considered as spam - but at least there is a reason why the receiver should be interested.
| | | | sylver
Local time: 17:29
English to French
| Knowing the facts | Nov 20, 2003 |
You assume that you are not going to work with an agency because it has a bad repute. That means you haven't worked with them, and you do not have any first hand facts to decide whether the agency is really a lousy one. In view of that, it would be quite questionnable to warm an end customer about an agency you don't really know.
In the case you have already worked with them and were not paid, (which is not your case at present) it might be more efficient to *threaten* the agency o... See more You assume that you are not going to work with an agency because it has a bad repute. That means you haven't worked with them, and you do not have any first hand facts to decide whether the agency is really a lousy one. In view of that, it would be quite questionnable to warm an end customer about an agency you don't really know.
In the case you have already worked with them and were not paid, (which is not your case at present) it might be more efficient to *threaten* the agency of contacting their new client if you do not get paid at once for the previous job and of course refuse the new job.
As to actually doing it, contacting the client, I would, but only if a serious security issue was at hand, when a mistranslation could involve injury or death.
Agencies with a bad repute seldom deal with experienced pros because experienced pros follow different payment practices lists and usually know the notorious bad payers. The usual targets are hungry, fresh on the market translators. Additionnaly there won't be no quality check from a bad payer. If the risks involved with the translation are important, I believe the end customer should know, with a copy to the agency itself (There can be no libel if you express only facts).
"Dear Sir,
I have been contacted by agency X regarding your translation request of Y, and declined, on the ground of less then reputable business practices (non payment). As your documents involve significant security risk, I take it on myself to inform you ..."
That's as far as I would theorically go. Theorically because, I never had the case, fortunately.
Also, as someone else pointed out, a translation which is not paid for is still your property and the end user should certainly be informed of that fact: He can not use your translation even if he paid the agency, just like you can not use pirated software, whether or not you paid the hacker for it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | mbc
Spain
Local time: 11:29
Spanish to English
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| playing your cards right | Nov 20, 2003 |
This happened to me and I´m still not sure if I made the right decision. I have to say first off that I already had contact with the end customers because the late-paying agency had set it up so that I emailed, talked over the phone with, and met the end customers. (A bad move on their part, but...)
I got fed up with not getting paid and by the general disorganization. So I thought ¨hay confianza¨, and I went for it. With one end customer it went great, they were very understanding and ... See more This happened to me and I´m still not sure if I made the right decision. I have to say first off that I already had contact with the end customers because the late-paying agency had set it up so that I emailed, talked over the phone with, and met the end customers. (A bad move on their part, but...)
I got fed up with not getting paid and by the general disorganization. So I thought ¨hay confianza¨, and I went for it. With one end customer it went great, they were very understanding and just got me to do the translations and bill them directly, the other customer was quite cold. Their attitude was basically, we get the work we want, we pay on time, your problem is not our problem.
And well, business is business and there are all sorts of agencies and end customers out there. Best of luck! ▲ Collapse
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Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 12:29
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Thank you all! | Nov 21, 2003 |
sylver wrote:
\"Dear Sir,
I have been contacted by agency X regarding your translation request of Y, and declined, on the ground of less then reputable business practices (non payment). As your documents involve significant security risk, I take it on myself to inform you ...\"
That\'s as far as I would theorically go. Theorically because, I never had the case, fortunately.
Also, as someone else pointed out, a translation which is not paid for is still your property and the end user should certainly be informed of that fact: He can not use your translation even if he paid the agency, just like you can not use pirated software, whether or not you paid the hacker for it.
That\'s an important point, and we can draw also parallels to other industries. For instance building projects, where subcontracters use cheap foreign labor or illegal immigrants, pay them peanuts and make a large profit. These practices are very common today, and everybody agrees that one should fight against it.
Thank you for all your thoughtful contributions!
| | | | A-Z Trans (X)
French to English
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| info on Zahlungspraxis | Mar 27, 2004 |
Fortunately I have lost so far only 900 euro to one crook in the beginning of my career as freelance translator, but was saved sometimes from accepting doubious offers by inquiries in Yahoo Zahlungspraxis. But I feel endcustomers should be told too.[/quote]
How does one make these enquiries?
Thanks.
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 12:29
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | | From an ethical point of view.. | Apr 6, 2004 |
First of all, please do not misunderstand me- all I am going to say is spoken from an ethical, not legal, point of view.
I feel endclients should hold responsability for who are they contracting with.
If the endclient contracts a reputedly bad payer agency because their services are cheaper than those from a serious agency, they are clearly obtainig a benefit from the translator not being paid.
Can this justify that the translator "goes for" the endclien... See more First of all, please do not misunderstand me- all I am going to say is spoken from an ethical, not legal, point of view.
I feel endclients should hold responsability for who are they contracting with.
If the endclient contracts a reputedly bad payer agency because their services are cheaper than those from a serious agency, they are clearly obtainig a benefit from the translator not being paid.
Can this justify that the translator "goes for" the endclient, as well as for the agency, in payment practices mailing lists or forums?
I am not sure, either way..
[Edited at 2004-04-06 00:05] ▲ Collapse
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