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Price transparency
Thread poster: Silvestro De Falco
Giles Watson
Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 06:54
Italian to English
In memoriam
Price transparency and price disclosure Jun 3, 2008

Silvestro De Falco wrote:

Margreet Logmans wrote:

That is, many jobs aren't negotiated through a bidding proces.
My best paid jobs are the ones people come to me for - because they want me, for whatever reason. So I definitely would not be interested - I know what I'm worth and I don't work for less.


Ok, but what does that have to do with the issue of price transparency?



"Price transparency" is a matter for the client and the service provider to sort out between them. You seem to be proposing some sort of compulsory post-transaction price disclosure, which doesn't sound at all practical or indeed desirable.

All you need to do is steer clear of jobs where price is the client's top priority.

Giles


 
Margreet Logmans (X)
Margreet Logmans (X)  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 06:54
English to Dutch
+ ...
Prices Jun 3, 2008

If you want to use price transparency as a means to gain an idea of market prices, you need to know there is a big segment in the market you will never know.

There's no way I'm going to make public the prices and projects I negotiate with direct clients, for example. So the best prices I get are the ones you don't know about.

This is the answer to your first question.

The answer to your second question is a logical effect:
since the best/highest price
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If you want to use price transparency as a means to gain an idea of market prices, you need to know there is a big segment in the market you will never know.

There's no way I'm going to make public the prices and projects I negotiate with direct clients, for example. So the best prices I get are the ones you don't know about.

This is the answer to your first question.

The answer to your second question is a logical effect:
since the best/highest prices are not public, others don't know there is a higher market segment. They will only see the prices that are made public. So if they set their prices based on their 'market knowledge', they will probably set them too low.
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Silvestro De Falco
Silvestro De Falco  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:54
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Price transparency Jun 3, 2008

[[/quote]

"Price transparency" is a matter for the client and the service provider to sort out between them. You seem to be proposing some sort of compulsory post-transaction price disclosure, which doesn't sound at all practical or indeed desirable.
[/quote]

Exactly, but only to those that participated in the bidding process.
If the process is not seen as desirable then my explanation must have been really awful.
I don't know about practical, because
... See more
[[/quote]

"Price transparency" is a matter for the client and the service provider to sort out between them. You seem to be proposing some sort of compulsory post-transaction price disclosure, which doesn't sound at all practical or indeed desirable.
[/quote]

Exactly, but only to those that participated in the bidding process.
If the process is not seen as desirable then my explanation must have been really awful.
I don't know about practical, because I don't run the site.

[[/quote]
All you need to do is steer clear of jobs where price is the client's top priority.

[/quote]
I do already. In fact I always assume that price is a top priority here on ProZ.
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Silvestro De Falco
Silvestro De Falco  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:54
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Price transparency Jun 3, 2008

Margreet Logmans wrote:

If you want to use price transparency as a means to gain an idea of market prices, you need to know there is a big segment in the market you will never know.

There's no way I'm going to make public the prices and projects I negotiate with direct clients, for example. So the best prices I get are the ones you don't know about.

This is the answer to your first question.

The answer to your second question is a logical effect:
since the best/highest prices are not public, others don't know there is a higher market segment. They will only see the prices that are made public. So if they set their prices based on their 'market knowledge', they will probably set them too low.


I see niow that the lack of clarity of my "proposals" is generating replies that go in a different direction.
Apologies for wasting your time.
Silvestro


 
Giles Watson
Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 06:54
Italian to English
In memoriam
Some outsourcers are looking for bidders, others for translators Jun 3, 2008

Silvestro De Falco wrote:

"Price transparency" is a matter for the client and the service provider to sort out between them. You seem to be proposing some sort of compulsory post-transaction price disclosure, which doesn't sound at all practical or indeed desirable.


Exactly, but only to those that participated in the bidding process.



It's still going to put a lot of people off posting jobs.



All you need to do is steer clear of jobs where price is the client's top priority.

I do already. In fact I always assume that price is a top priority here on ProZ.



This seems to be a common misconception.

By their very nature, indiscriminate calls for bids tend to concentrate on price, here on ProZ as anywhere else, and frankly these are not jobs that hold any great attraction for me. On the other hand, more and more outsourcers seem to be actively using the Proz directories to find suitably qualified translators.

Giles


 
Silvestro De Falco
Silvestro De Falco  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:54
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Price trasparency Jun 4, 2008

[quote]Giles Watson wrote:

[It's still going to put a lot of people off posting jobs.

[quote]

Forgive me, Giles, but that view is unsupported.


[quote]Giles Watson wrote

This seems to be a common misconception.

[quote]

The scientific basis of my proposal was meant to correct just that. In fact, I mentioned "adverse selection" as a consequence of that misconception.

Let me be clear about something.
If this site aims to be a functioning market, then price transparency is the way to go to improve the process. And this is not something I invented.
On the other hand, if this site has another business model - say to send as many warm bodies as possible to bid for a job - then obviously my proposal would not be a priority. In this case I am not even interested in promoting it any further.


 
Damian Harrison (X)
Damian Harrison (X)
Germany
Local time: 06:54
German to English
My 2 cents Jun 4, 2008

The most useful aspects of proz.com are the community, the forums and the directories.

The least useful thing is the job board.

Don't get me wrong - I realize that it is a useful service for outsourcers and some translators - but I suspect that it is actually the feature translators use least.

While there is a global translation market most of us operate within regional markets and the information on average rates etc is readily available from professio
... See more
The most useful aspects of proz.com are the community, the forums and the directories.

The least useful thing is the job board.

Don't get me wrong - I realize that it is a useful service for outsourcers and some translators - but I suspect that it is actually the feature translators use least.

While there is a global translation market most of us operate within regional markets and the information on average rates etc is readily available from professional organizations, at Powwows and local associations. Given the extremely broad range of companies using the job board and the relatively low number of jobs going through it, I can't really see the advantage in complicating its use.

[Edited at 2008-06-04 07:46]
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Silvestro De Falco
Silvestro De Falco  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:54
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Price transparency Jun 4, 2008

Damian Harrison wrote:

The most useful aspects of proz.com are the community, the forums and the directories.

The least useful thing is the job board.

Don't get me wrong - I realize that it is a useful service for outsourcers and some translators - but I suspect that it is actually the feature translators use least.

[Edited at 2008-06-04 07:46]


Perhaps this is so because the process is murky, there is no discovery. To function well a market needs information.

quote]Damian Harrison wrote:
I can't really see the advantage in complicating its use.

[Edited at 2008-06-04 07:46] [/quote]

What's so complicated about it? You already receive an answer. All is needed is the price at which the job was assigned.


 
Giles Watson
Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 06:54
Italian to English
In memoriam
Price is not the only factor in job assignment Jun 4, 2008

[quote]Silvestro De Falco wrote:

It's still going to put a lot of people off posting jobs.

Forgive me, Giles, but that view is unsupported.

[\quote]

It's a reasonable supposition nonetheless. The site would certainly lose any jobs I might post.

[quote]

This seems to be a common misconception.

The scientific basis of my proposal was meant to correct just that. In fact, I mentioned "adverse selection" as a consequence of that misconception.

[\quote]

The obsession with price among job posters who call for bids instead of actively seeking suitable candidates is only to be expected if they have no other criteria on which to base their choice. Proz seems quite rightly to be heading in the direction of offering job posters a wider range of information on which to selector prospective translators.

[quote]

Let me be clear about something.
If this site aims to be a functioning market, then price transparency is the way to go to improve the process. And this is not something I invented.

[\quote]

I understand "price transparency" as transaction-specific clarity and completeness when quoting rates and conditions to prospective customers: you seem to be talking about price *disclosure* to third parties, which is really only mandatory if it's the taxman who's asking.

In any case, what skews markets is not lack of knowledge about prices in particular; it's asymmetry of information in general. If you want to buy but don't know the market, you tend to go for the cheapest product available. As you acquire more knowledge of the market, you become more discriminating and prepared to invest more in your purchase.

Most bid-oriented job posters don't really know the translation market. If Proz can help to educate them, many might become less price-obsessed and more quality-oriented.

G.


 
Damian Harrison (X)
Damian Harrison (X)
Germany
Local time: 06:54
German to English
It is not useful because it does not provide any work Jun 4, 2008

The "jobs board" is not of much use to most translators because they will never get any work through it.

There are 9656 German_English translators registered at proz.com.
On average perhaps 7 jobs are posted for this combination per day.
If we subtract the "10,000 words for 50 Euros" postings, there are perhaps 2 postings per week that most of us would consider applying for. But because most site users will already be busy with agencies and direct clients, many job post
... See more
The "jobs board" is not of much use to most translators because they will never get any work through it.

There are 9656 German_English translators registered at proz.com.
On average perhaps 7 jobs are posted for this combination per day.
If we subtract the "10,000 words for 50 Euros" postings, there are perhaps 2 postings per week that most of us would consider applying for. But because most site users will already be busy with agencies and direct clients, many job postings only attract between 20-60 bids.
This means that an interesting job offer will attract - at the very most - less than 1% of all potential bidders (this calculation is based solely on the language combo).

Now, my math can be pretty bad at the best of times... but my point is this: job postings are probably completely irrelevant to most site users. And that has nothing to do with a lack of price transparency. What gets you work is your profile, the quality you deliver and your reputation. I have not won a single bid since joining proz, but I make a good living through the contacts I have made here. And that is where this site really shines.



[Edited at 2008-06-04 11:55]
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Silvestro De Falco
Silvestro De Falco  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:54
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Price transparency Jun 4, 2008

Giles Watson wrote:


I understand "price transparency" as transaction-specific clarity and completeness when quoting rates and conditions to prospective customers: you seem to be talking about price *disclosure* to third parties, which is really only mandatory if it's the taxman who's asking.

G.


Price transparency is broader than that. It is a pre-condition for price discovery, i.e. the process whereby buyers and sellers adapt by trial and error their expectations to the available information.


 
Silvestro De Falco
Silvestro De Falco  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:54
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Price Jun 4, 2008

Damian Harrison wrote:

but my point is this: job postings are probably completely irrelevant to most site users. And that has nothing to do with a lack of price transparency. What gets you work is your profile, the quality you deliver and your reputation. I have not won a single bid since joining proz, but I make a good living through the contacts I have made here. And that is where this site really shines.




And I wish you eternal prosperity.
But my point is that a better functioning market only enlarges the range of opportunities.


 
Viktoria Gimbe
Viktoria Gimbe  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 01:54
English to French
+ ...
Well, let's simulate, shall we? Jun 4, 2008

Outsourcer posts job. Translators quote. Job is assigned. E-mail is sent out to quoters to tell them that the job was assigned for $100. What the translators may not know is that the job was actually assigned at $200. Now, quoters think that such a job is worth $100 - and will start quoting such prices, thinking they will never squeeze more out of it.

An outsourcer can very easily lie. And when they do (and I've seen examples of this before), it's not only unpractical for the commun
... See more
Outsourcer posts job. Translators quote. Job is assigned. E-mail is sent out to quoters to tell them that the job was assigned for $100. What the translators may not know is that the job was actually assigned at $200. Now, quoters think that such a job is worth $100 - and will start quoting such prices, thinking they will never squeeze more out of it.

An outsourcer can very easily lie. And when they do (and I've seen examples of this before), it's not only unpractical for the community, it's downright dangerous. There are already way too many translators on this site who are tricked into believing that 4 cents per word is the standard rate. I think this would only add to that problem.
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Silvestro De Falco
Silvestro De Falco  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:54
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Price transparency - Jun 4, 2008

Viktoria Gimbe wrote:

Outsourcer posts job. Translators quote. Job is assigned. E-mail is sent out to quoters to tell them that the job was assigned for $100. What the translators may not know is that the job was actually assigned at $200. Now, quoters think that such a job is worth $100 - and will start quoting such prices, thinking they will never squeeze more out of it.

An outsourcer can very easily lie. And when they do (and I've seen examples of this before), it's not only unpractical for the community, it's downright dangerous. There are already way too many translators on this site who are tricked into believing that 4 cents per word is the standard rate. I think this would only add to that problem.


If the process takes place through official channels - and so far as I can tell, the information from bidding to award at present does go through ProZ- there would not be much room for lying.


 
Damian Harrison (X)
Damian Harrison (X)
Germany
Local time: 06:54
German to English
proz.com is not an official channel Jun 4, 2008

Proz is not an official channel nor does it claim to be. Outsourcers / translators are not under any compulsion to actually abide by the "agreements" concluded in the bidding process. In fact, such agreements are not even concluded through Proz - they result from the individual contracts agreed upon by the outsourcer and the service provider. Neither of these is under any compulsion to divulge the details of their contract - the contract may even (and often does) expressly forbid the sharing or ... See more
Proz is not an official channel nor does it claim to be. Outsourcers / translators are not under any compulsion to actually abide by the "agreements" concluded in the bidding process. In fact, such agreements are not even concluded through Proz - they result from the individual contracts agreed upon by the outsourcer and the service provider. Neither of these is under any compulsion to divulge the details of their contract - the contract may even (and often does) expressly forbid the sharing or publication of such details.

There is so much room for lying that you could drive a truck through it...preferably a truck with one of Hikmat's bumper stickers.



I am sorry, but as it stands your suggestion is simply not practical...

...and as I mentioned above> the job board is not the market... tweaking this system will not affect the workflow of most proz users, simply because the job postings are largely irrelevant for day to day business.

[Edited at 2008-06-04 15:32]
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