| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Comments on the ProZ.com Professional Guidelines Thread poster: Samuel Murray
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Gerard de Noord 
France
Local time: 17:54
Member (2003)
English to Dutch
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| Free-lancers are weird | Oct 22, 2008 |
The first time I read the Professional Guidelines I thought: "That's not for me." And I happily went on with my translation.
I actually understand each and every problem Samuel has with them. In the last weeks I've often clicked on those new red seals and I've re-read those guidelines over and over again. They always stopped me from going any further in the new certification process.
After reading this thread and all the attached threads, I've decided to jump aboard on ... See more The first time I read the Professional Guidelines I thought: "That's not for me." And I happily went on with my translation.
I actually understand each and every problem Samuel has with them. In the last weeks I've often clicked on those new red seals and I've re-read those guidelines over and over again. They always stopped me from going any further in the new certification process.
After reading this thread and all the attached threads, I've decided to jump aboard on the certification train. Tonight I have endorsed the Professional Guidelines and have applied for certification. I won't fight this uphill battle without the support of our peers.
Regards,
Gerard
[Edited at 2008-10-22 23:36] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | What about "business"? | Oct 23, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Niraja Nanjundan wrote: Lia Fail wrote:
I would also prefer the word "profession" rather than "industry". My observation is that translators who view the profession as an industry rather than a profession, have a more aggressive approach, and that ProZ.com is full of such people. I also noted the change from industry to profession, but IMO the difference is in the eye of the beholder. As professionals we are involved in the industry. And some of what makes us professionals, make us professionals only in the context of the industry. So I have no objection to either term being used. In fact I get the impression that ProZ's Guidelines use the word "professional" to mean "trustworthy". 
In my (arrogant?) opinion, what we translators engage in is a "business" as well as a"profession", rather than an "industry".
I've noticed in the last decade or so that the word "business" is increasingly rarely used - and every "business" (e.g. insurance and banking) now describes itself as an "industry". Is this because business has earned itself such a vile reputation?
Off the "professional guidelines" point, I know ...
Regards,
Jenny.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:54
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | More off-topic: more terminology | Oct 23, 2008 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
I've noticed in the last decade or so that the word "business" is increasingly rarely used - and every "business" (e.g. insurance and banking) now describes itself as an "industry".
Well, "business" is now often used as a synonym for commerce, or in some cases to denote specifically corporate or the executive management level of business. The word is also used for individual companies. But it is difficult to pin it down really -- the word "industry" is also used for manufacturing related things. And let's not start on the question whether you are in a profession or not.
He is in the medical industry (he makes syringes).
He is in the medical business (he sells syringes).
He is in the medical profession (he is a nurse or doctor).
He went into the graphic design business (or: industry).
He bought a certain graphic design business (or: firm, company).
He bought into the graphic design certain industry (he invested in it).
He bought into the graphic design certain industry (he is finally convinced by its value).
He is a graphic designer by profession.
His profession is graphic design.
He is a professional translator (i.e. he does it for a living).
He is an amateur translator (i.e. he does it for a hobby).
He is a professional street sweeper (i.e. he can be trusted to do it well).
He is an amateur street sweeper (i.e. he only recently started doing it).
| | | | | The meaning of responsibility | Oct 23, 2008 |
When I read the guidelines, I thought they were very basic and the shortest I had seen so far. I had no problems endorsing them.
The wording may not always be the best, but try reading other guidelines...
There is one sentence that made me think though, after reading this discussion:
. accept responsibility for the quality of work they deliver, even when that work has been subcontracted
Legal dictionaries say this:
Black's law dictionary... See more When I read the guidelines, I thought they were very basic and the shortest I had seen so far. I had no problems endorsing them.
The wording may not always be the best, but try reading other guidelines...
There is one sentence that made me think though, after reading this discussion:
. accept responsibility for the quality of work they deliver, even when that work has been subcontracted
Legal dictionaries say this:
Black's law dictionary:
1. LIABILITY
A dictionary of modern legal usage (also by Garner):
Responsibility when used in the sense "liability to be made to account or pay," is a legalism not generally understood by nonlawyers, although its sense is sometimes deducible. Whereas nonlawyers use this term in moral senses, lawyers give it legal senses-e.g.:"The mayor's freedom from monetary responsibiity stems from his sovereign immunity."
You could argue here that responsibility in the moral sense was meant, but that would be pretty useless. I tend to limit my liability to the value of the job. ▲ Collapse
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:54
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I actually thought that moral would be it | Oct 23, 2008 |
Anjo Sterringa wrote:
You could argue here that responsibility in the moral sense was meant, but that would be pretty useless. I tend to limit my liability to the value of the job.
I think moral responsibility would actually be a good option for the Guidelines. It places a moral obligation on the translator to ensure good quality work from his outsourcers without making him monetarily liable for their mistakes
| | | | | Responsibility = liability = OK | Oct 23, 2008 |
Anjo Sterringa wrote:
There is one sentence that made me think though, after reading this discussion:
. accept responsibility for the quality of work they deliver, even when that work has been subcontracted
This means that if you are assigned a project and you subcontract part of that project to me you are still responsible to your customer for the entire job. If I screw up, you must somehow put things in order for your customer. Here responsibility also equals liability in every sense as far as the relationship with your customer is concerned. The limits of liability existing in your other (non-subcontracted) projects would apply here.
This is perfectly normal - what's the problem?
Samuel wrote:
I think moral responsibility would actually be a good option for the Guidelines. It places a moral obligation on the translator to ensure good quality work from his outsourcers without making him monetarily liable for their mistakes
You misunderstood. The reference isn't to what your outsourcer delivers but to what you deliver to the outsourcer.
[Edited at 2008-10-23 10:29]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:54
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Two comments to Kevin | Oct 23, 2008 |
Kevin Lossner wrote: Samuel wrote:
...a moral obligation on the translator to ensure good quality work from his **outsourcers**... You misunderstood.
I meant "subcontractor", sorry. So I didn't misunderstand
This means that if you are assigned a project and you subcontract part of that project to me you are still responsible to your customer for the entire job. ... Here responsibility also equals liability in every sense as far as the relationship with your customer is concerned. ... This is perfectly normal - what's the problem?
I can think of two situations where liability and responsibility may be distinct things.
The first is where the client prefers to have a single contact point for the job, and requests that the translator act as a mini project manager, organising subcontractors for either parts of the translation or for specified parts of the job such as reviewing, backtranslation and version merging. In such a case, it can be said that the translator's subcontractors are really only peers who just happen to be paid via the translator's invoice and who don't have contact with the client. But I'm sure we'll all refer to them as subcontractors still. If such a subcontractor screws up, the translator has a moral obligation to amend the situation, but he can't in my view be held liable for late delivery etc, in the same way as he would if he had chosen to subcontract without the client's specific directive.
The second concerns contract breach by a subcontractor. The translator can check a product delivered to him, but he can't control the actions of a subcontractor, even if he did his best to try. If the subcontractor breaches confidentiality, for example, the translator should not be held liable for damages, if he had not neglected to impress upon the subcontractor the need for circumspection (although IMO there should be no need for anyone to tell their subcontractors what in our industry is obvious). This second point may be debatable because the guideline refers specifially to "work" and not to "service", but since most of the other guidelines are about more than just the product delivered, I believe that even this item refers to the execution of the entire agreement, not just the product delivered.
What say you?
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 18:54
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
Samuel Murray wrote:
What say you?
Please see my comment "Ad Absurdum" in a releted thread:
http://www.proz.com/post/977690#977690
We can discuss these Command..., sorry, Guidelines until we get blue in a face- but please, keep in mind, they are just a Professional Guidelines, they DO NOT dwelve into realm of Legal relations between Parties, if none the less misunderstandings occur there, this is a subject to a court (if mutual agreement can't be reached), and if it can't be reached, not the Very Finest and Gilded Guidelines, adopted by whatever parties or organizations will help anyone there.
Uldis
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These are supposed to be guidelines for professionals who work with language.
If they are unclear, ambiguous or clumsily expressed, what kind of image does that project?
True, they are not contractual. They do not cover every aspect and eventuality that may ever arise. However, when it comes to those aspects and eventualities they do cover, they should be clear, unambiguous and preferably not appear to have been written at 16:55 on a Friday.
I agree entirel... See more These are supposed to be guidelines for professionals who work with language.
If they are unclear, ambiguous or clumsily expressed, what kind of image does that project?
True, they are not contractual. They do not cover every aspect and eventuality that may ever arise. However, when it comes to those aspects and eventualities they do cover, they should be clear, unambiguous and preferably not appear to have been written at 16:55 on a Friday.
I agree entirely with the general spirit of the thing, and what I believe to be the intended meaning. But, as a language professional talking about guidelines for language professionals, I really should not have to be resorting to terms such as "what I believe to be the intended meaning". ▲ Collapse
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