Don't let EU clients post jobs w/ geographical restictions (staff: 'their reasons are valid') Thread poster: Williamson
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Williamson 
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:36
Flemish to English
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Far too often bids are published where bidder must live in a certain E.U.-country in order to be able to bid.
On the following link, you can find the official E.U.-policy with regard to free competition:
http://europa.eu.int/comm/competition/citizen/index_en.html
Proz observes new E.U. VAT regulations, shouldn't it also observe the regulations with reg... See more Far too often bids are published where bidder must live in a certain E.U.-country in order to be able to bid.
On the following link, you can find the official E.U.-policy with regard to free competition:
http://europa.eu.int/comm/competition/citizen/index_en.html
Proz observes new E.U. VAT regulations, shouldn't it also observe the regulations with regard to free competition within the framework of the E.U. and adapt its policies towards making it impossible for a bidder in the E.U. to post a job-offer with : living in country X,Y,Z of the E.U. only. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | There is usually a good reason for a geographical stipulation | Jun 29, 2003 |
Consider that clients generally want as many qualified professionals to express interest in their jobs as possible. So when they require service providers live in a certain area, there is usually a reason.
Valid reasons include:
- The job is in-house
- The job is onsite interpreting
- They require (or their end client requires) someone local to the target area
- Nationality is a concern (government or military jobs)
... See more Consider that clients generally want as many qualified professionals to express interest in their jobs as possible. So when they require service providers live in a certain area, there is usually a reason.
Valid reasons include:
- The job is in-house
- The job is onsite interpreting
- They require (or their end client requires) someone local to the target area
- Nationality is a concern (government or military jobs)
- There are accounting, currency or taxation issues
For these reasons and more, it would be inappropriate for us to block clients from making geographical specifications in their job postings. ▲ Collapse
| | | | invguy
Bulgaria
Local time: 20:36
English to Bulgarian
| We're still too far from the ideal free market... | Jun 29, 2003 |
... even though easily accessible online communication has brought us much closer to it.
Business-wise, Henry is right IMO. The validity of his arguments is obvious.
I could add that many clients still feel safer if they can meet you in person - be it only once. Irrational as it may seem to us online souls, good old-fashioned handshake still hasn't found a replacement in the 'global village'... tax numbers, VID-ding, e-signatures and all that jazz notwithstanding...... See more ... even though easily accessible online communication has brought us much closer to it.
Business-wise, Henry is right IMO. The validity of his arguments is obvious.
I could add that many clients still feel safer if they can meet you in person - be it only once. Irrational as it may seem to us online souls, good old-fashioned handshake still hasn't found a replacement in the 'global village'... tax numbers, VID-ding, e-signatures and all that jazz notwithstanding...
Indeed, when is comes to trust, a real human being sitting right across the table from you can't be beaten by a sequence of bytes - no matter how sophisticated the latter might be. Not that I'm *that* conservative myself - but I can see where the occasional traditionally-minded client is coming from, and can't blame them. ▲ Collapse
| | | | sylver
Local time: 01:36
English to French
| Misinterpretation. | Jun 30, 2003 |
Williamson wrote: Far too often bids are published where bidder must live in a certain E.U.-country in order to be able to bid. On the following link, you can find the official E.U.-policy with regard to free competition: http://europa.eu.int/comm/competition/citizen/index_en.html Proz observes new E.U. VAT regulations, shouldn't it also observe the regulations with regard to free competition within the framework of the E.U. and adapt its policies towards making it impossible for a bidder in the E.U. to post a job-offer with : living in country X,Y,Z of the E.U. only.
Wait a minute. That is a misinterpretation of what "free competition" is supposed to be and do.
"Free Competition" is between "providers". Us. It means that we should not establish monopolistic practices. This legislation is made to protect the rights of the customers to decide who to buy from, and get reasonably priced services.
A customer (agency, direct client) has full rights to decide who he is going to buy from, where his provider should be located, what specializations his provider should have....
If Joe Blow wants a translator from east keokuk village, he has full rights to ask for it. That's his money, and up to him to decide whose services he wants to hire.
What about online booking? Suppose I wanna go see a movie. Should I be forbiden to specify in which area the movie theater should be? That could get real funny!
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Antonella Andreella (X)
Italy
Local time: 19:36
German to Italian
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| Agree with Sylver | Jun 30, 2003 |
Regards
Antonella
| | | | Parrot
Spain
Local time: 19:36
Spanish to English
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| Other reasons I've encountered | Jun 30, 2003 |
Apart from what Henry said, here are some other reasons I've come across:
- "We only have it on 500 pages of hard copy." (Oops...)
- "The CD can be in your office in 10 minutes by prepaid taxi." (Can't even recommend a colleague from the same country...)
| | | | Miller
Local time: 19:36
German to English
| Free competition in the EEC | Jul 1, 2003 |
Free competition within the EEC. It's just a myth.
Andy Miller, Germany
sylver wrote: Williamson wrote: Far too often bids are published where bidder must live in a certain E.U.-country in order to be able to bid. On the following link, you can find the official E.U.-policy with regard to free competition: http://europa.eu.int/comm/competition/citizen/index_en.html Proz observes new E.U. VAT regulations, shouldn't it also observe the regulations with regard to free competition within the framework of the E.U. and adapt its policies towards making it impossible for a bidder in the E.U. to post a job-offer with : living in country X,Y,Z of the E.U. only. Wait a minute. That is a misinterpretation of what "free competition" is supposed to be and do. "Free Competition" is between "providers". Us. It means that we should not establish monopolistic practices. This legislation is made to protect the rights of the customers to decide who to buy from, and get reasonably priced services. A customer (agency, direct client) has full rights to decide who he is going to buy from, where his provider should be located, what specializations his provider should have.... If Joe Blow wants a translator from east keokuk village, he has full rights to ask for it. That's his money, and up to him to decide whose services he wants to hire. What about online booking? Suppose I wanna go see a movie. Should I be forbiden to specify in which area the movie theater should be? That could get real funny!
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:36
Flemish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | The Volkswagen Example. | Jul 2, 2003 |
Valid reasons include:
- The job is in-house
- The job is onsite interpreting
The question and the quoted E.U.regulation dealt with the E.U.-market, not outside the E.U.
With high-speed trains (Eurostar, TGV, ICE (Germany) AVE in Spain) and low airfares (Ryanair,Virgin, Easyjet,Berlinair and others...) in Europe, getting on-site does not weigh so much on the budget of the customer. Neither is it a big problem for the customer to pay such fares. (range from ... See more Valid reasons include:
- The job is in-house
- The job is onsite interpreting
The question and the quoted E.U.regulation dealt with the E.U.-market, not outside the E.U.
With high-speed trains (Eurostar, TGV, ICE (Germany) AVE in Spain) and low airfares (Ryanair,Virgin, Easyjet,Berlinair and others...) in Europe, getting on-site does not weigh so much on the budget of the customer. Neither is it a big problem for the customer to pay such fares. (range from 0 euro and only taxes when Ryanair gives away tickets to about 80 euro for a Eurostar ticket).
Who would accept an assignment of any agency or company which cannot pay such fares? Time in these cases is not an issue either.
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- They require (or their end client requires) someone local to the target area
- Nationality is a concern (government or military jobs)
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-Within the European context, the nationality requirement is : "Be a citizen of the E.U.", not a national of the country concerned, this also applies for government or police jobs. I am not sure about military jobs.
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- There are accounting, currency or taxation issues
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-What about I.A.S?
-Taxation is not the same in the entire E.U., that is true, but whether an agency or company in Greece pays an interpreter based in Finland should not make a difference. Both countries use the same currency and basically apply the same regulations with regard to VAT.
The Finnish interpreter working in Greece exports a service to another E.U.-country, meaning that no V.A.T.should be paid on that service.
It is true that when I took the standpoint of the consumer (the person who places the bid), I had the Volkswagen example at the back of my head: Volkswagen forced its dealers in Italy only to sell to Italians and got a billion euro fine from the European Commission for doing so, because they impeded the customer to sell their car where it suited them best in the E.U.
"Can one party based within the E.U. exclude another party in the same E.U. from bidding for a deal through an intermediary and to what extend does this consumer impedes the bidder to compete freely for a job". Is a bidding web-site not a job-market to a certain extend, just like a temporary employment-agency. Normally a British national with the necessary requirements must be able to bid for a job in Germany through such a temporary employment agency and vice-versa. Nationality muy not be a reason for exclusion by this intermediary.
Who are the customers of this website: the posters of job-offers or the bidders (Platinum members).
If this website claims to follow European legislation and have a division in Europe to what extend can it exclude its customers from bidding for a job (exclude them from the market)? ▲ Collapse
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Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:36
Flemish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Must be: "to buy their car".
| | | | sylver
Local time: 01:36
English to French
| Going around the loop | Jul 3, 2003 |
Williamson wrote:
"Can one party based within the E.U. exclude another party in the same E.U. from bidding for a deal through an intermediary and to what extend does this consumer impedes the bidder to compete freely for a job". Is a bidding web-site not a job-market to a certain extend, just like a temporary employment-agency. ...
Who are the customers of this website: the posters of job-offers or the bidders (Platinum members).
If this website claims to follow European legislation and have a division in Europe to what extend can it exclude its customers from bidding for a job (exclude them from the market)?
You get it wrong on that one, I think. Proz is a market place. Being a member of proz is like having your stand on a market place. Platinium gets you a better stand. That is the service Proz provides.
It would be a violation of the competition laws to emit restrictions as to who can become a member, or buy platinium. Basically, get a stall on the market place. Proz does not offer customers, but a spot where customers can contact you, or from which you can interpell customers passing by. (the guy happens to pass by your language pairs)
Now on the market place you are a provider. not a customer. Period. You got your stall there. Proz's services have already been provided. Now you are on your own trying to get some sales done. Competition is as free as possible, and there is no reason why the customer (not you) wouldn't have the right to decide where he wants to look for a provider. You are on a market place, but that's up to your customer to come to your part of the market place.
It's between you (provider) and them (translation buyers). Proz has nothing to do with that.
If you follow your line of thinking, why does Proz allow translation buyers to set which language pairs they are looking for? After all, it reduce greatly the volume of job offers you are able to see, doesn't it?
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Williamson wrote:
If this website claims to follow European legislation and have a division in Europe...
We do not have a division in Europe, and have not claimed to. We have an employee (a contractor) and a bank account.
As for us "following European legislation", in the case of VAT tax, stipulations were made for *non-EU companies*, and that is what applied to us. Other laws do not necessarily apply, as far as I know.
By the way, I do not agree with either your interpretation of the laws you cite, nor your characterization of ProZ.com's activities and how they relate.
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:36
Flemish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | No tit-for-tat | Jul 3, 2003 |
It was just a point of view. Sylver "enlightened" my mind. No further reason for discussion.
Proz is one site of information for translators. By the way, there are other sites where translators can find jobs(and not only the bidding sites like Proz, Aquarius, Translatorscafé etc...)
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