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Your opinion please ... (STAFF: job closed in ProZ.com was reposted in another site)
Thread poster: svenfrade

svenfrade  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:49
French to German
+ ...
Nov 14, 2009

Perhaps I am just overly sensitive, but I would really like to know your opinion on the following:

I received an e-mail this morning with a notification of a job offer on another site. Since I was interested in the subject matter, I thought I would have a look and applied although it was a rush job and the rate offered was lousy.

Then I paid my usual visit to proz.com and to my surprise I saw the same job posted here - with the difference that the job poster was an agency offering a much higher rate and the job was already closed. So the person who got the assignment reposted the job elsewhere ... at a little more than a meagre third of the original rate.

I wrote to the person immediately in order to withdraw my application, since I just do not think it is a decent thing to do. I would not dream of bidding for a job here, knowing that I would not be able to do it myself, just to repost it elsewhere at not even half the original rate. I have only ever outsourced one job. It was a small one from a direct client, but I did not think it fair to keep more than one third of the rate. I think this is neither a decent form of behaviour nor is it fair on your colleagues. But perhaps I just do not know what business is all about ...

[Edited at 2009-11-14 06:52 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-11-14 06:54 GMT]

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2009-11-14 19:03 GMT]


 

Kitty Maerz  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:49
English to German
+ ...
I completely agree Nov 14, 2009

I completely agree with you.

Actually, I did apply for the original job offer on Proz.com and was quite surprised to see it reposted on the other site - with an even tighter deadline but at a significantly lower rate. I see several things wrong with this:

First of all, I am not certain that the person in question has the permission to outsource this job. As outsourcing does pose additional uncertainties and the deadline is not only tight but also quite firm, I am not sure whether the original agency would have agreed to it.

Secondly, not only is it a bit questionable to take such a big cut when outsourcing, but given the rush nature of the job over the weekend I also feel that the new rate is way too low.

However, given the rather low rate and the very short time available, I dare say there is a good chance that the quality of the outsourced translation will not be very high. Which means the outsourcer will have to spend quite some time and effort editing it if the final product is to be adequate. So maybe the big cut will be earned after allicon_wink.gif


 

Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:49
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Completely agree! Nov 14, 2009

And actually, in my opinion if you are completely sure that you are talking about the same job, you should get in touch with the original posters in Proz to report the fact that their chosen translator is subcontracting the job. It is only fair that they know what the translator is doing, as the text they will receive will not be what they will pay for.

 

Claudio Porcellana  Identity Verified
Italy
very interesting ... Nov 14, 2009

and completely agree

furthermore, considering that many peers are registered on both portals, and even the main contractor can be one of them, I think that this sub-contractor, aside from being a scoundrel, is quite silly

Claudio


 

Valery Kaminski  Identity Verified
Belarus
Local time: 10:49
Member (2006)
English to Russian
+ ...
subcontracting? Nov 14, 2009

Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:

...their chosen translator is subcontracting the job...


This can hardly be called 'subcontracting'

Dictionary definition:

subcontract

n. A contract that assigns some of the obligations of a prior contract to another party.

v. To make a subcontract or a subcontract for.


This kind of practices certainly deserves another name. Any suggestions?


 

Yasutomo Kanazawa  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:49
The term you're looking for is... Nov 14, 2009

Valery Kaminski wrote:

Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:

...their chosen translator is subcontracting the job...


This can hardly be called 'subcontracting'

Dictionary definition:

subcontract

n. A contract that assigns some of the obligations of a prior contract to another party.

v. To make a subcontract or a subcontract for.


This kind of practices certainly deserves another name. Any suggestions?


broker, I believe.


 

Laurent KRAULAND  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 09:49
French to German
+ ...
I just wonder... Nov 14, 2009

how many ProZ.com rules were "happily" broken along the way and how many times such things occur in a month/year - certainly neither the first time, nor the last one.

 

Krzysztof Kajetanowicz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 09:49
English to Polish
+ ...
hold on a second Nov 14, 2009

The 'reposter' got hired to do a job and take responsibility for its quality. I assume the original outsourcer will get quality work that they are paying for. If the rate at which work is subcontracted is too low, the clever translator won't find a subcontractor. Whence the condemnation then? Whose interest was infringed, aside from the interest of those who didn't get the job?

It is a market, after all, isn't it?

[Edited at 2009-11-14 22:40 GMT]


 

madak  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:49
Swedish to English
+ ...
... Nov 14, 2009

Deleted as I read the posting I as trying to reply to more carefully.

[Edited at 2009-11-15 00:05 GMT]


 

Andrea Riffo  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 03:49
English to Spanish
huh? Nov 14, 2009

Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:

The 'reposter' got hired to do a job and take responsibility for its quality. I assume the original outsourcer will get quality work that they are paying for. If the rate at which work is subcontracted is too low, the clever translator won't find a subcontractor. Whence the condemnation then? Whose interest was infringed, aside from the interest of those who didn't get the job?

It is a market, after all, isn't it?


If the original poster hired a FREELANCER (as opposed to a translation company), then the person was chosen on the basis of HIS/HER qualifications/cv/etc. Therefore, if the chosen freelancer is subcontracting (assuming they're not informing the client) they are basically CHEATING/LYING/take your pick; not to mention, very probably disregarding client confidentiality in the process.

More simply: if I hire SpongeBob Squarepants to do a job, it means that I want -yes, you guessed!- none other than SpongeBob Squarepants to the job. Any other possibility is highly unethical and, as far as I'm concerned, breach of contract.

I too believe that the original poster should be informed of this, assuming that inkweaver is 100% certain that it is the same job and that the reposter is indeed brokering the assignment.

Greetings

PS: As far as I'm concerned, the "much lower rates" issue is just the icing of the cake.

[Edited at 2009-11-14 23:36 GMT]


 

QUOI  Identity Verified

Chinese to English
+ ...
Nothing new... Nov 14, 2009

If there is a cent of profit to be made, you are assured that someone will try to grab it, legitimate or otherwise, ethical or not.

If you only want SpongeBob Squarepants to do the job for you, unless you expressly stipulate it as an essential condition of the contract, then SpongeBob Squarepants is free to do whatever provided he does nothing that the contract says he should not do.


ariffo wrote:

If the original poster hired a FREELANCER (as opposed to a translation company), then the person was chosen on the basis of HIS/HER qualifications/cv/etc. Therefore, if the chosen freelancer is subcontracting (assuming they're not informing the client) they are basically CHEATING/LYING/take your pick; not to mention, very probably disregarding client confidentiality in the process.

More simply: if I hire SpongeBob Squarepants to do a job, it means that I want -yes, you guessed!- none other than SpongeBob Squarepants to the job. Any other possibility is highly unethical and, as far as I'm concerned, breach of contract.

I too believe that the original poster should be informed of this, assuming that inkweaver is 100% certain that it is the same job and that the reposter is indeed brokering the assignment.

Greetings

PS: As far as I'm concerned, the "much lower rates" issue is just the icing of the cake.

[Edited at 2009-11-14 23:36 GMT]


[Edited at 2009-11-15 00:01 GMT]


 

Ali Bayraktar  Identity Verified
Turkey
Member (2007)
English to Turkish
+ ...
This is not applied here Nov 15, 2009

Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:

The 'reposter' got hired to do a job and take responsibility for its quality. I assume the original outsourcer will get quality work that they are paying for. If the rate at which work is subcontracted is too low, the clever translator won't find a subcontractor. Whence the condemnation then? Whose interest was infringed, aside from the interest of those who didn't get the job?

It is a market, after all, isn't it?

[Edited at 2009-11-14 22:40 GMT]


Hi Krzysztof,
Please pay attention that the service required is Translation but not Management or Consultation.
So your opinion here could not be applied.

But we could not know what happened exactly between two parties.
May be translator and agency have been agreed on subcontracting.
Or this translator proposed them his management services and they agreed to receive.

With details provided above (assuming that the agency hired a freelancer and this person subcontracted it to third party) I can say it is not right and also unacceptable.


 

jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:49
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
I see nothing wrong with it, Nov 15, 2009

even if a translator re-posts the job on the same site.

 

svenfrade  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:49
French to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Still unethical in my opinion ... Nov 15, 2009

ariffo wrote:

If the original poster hired a FREELANCER (as opposed to a translation company), then the person was chosen on the basis of HIS/HER qualifications/cv/etc. Therefore, if the chosen freelancer is subcontracting (assuming they're not informing the client) they are basically CHEATING/LYING/take your pick; not to mention, very probably disregarding client confidentiality in the process.

More simply: if I hire SpongeBob Squarepants to do a job, it means that I want -yes, you guessed!- none other than SpongeBob Squarepants to the job. Any other possibility is highly unethical and, as far as I'm concerned, breach of contract.

I too believe that the original poster should be informed of this, assuming that inkweaver is 100% certain that it is the same job and that the reposter is indeed brokering the assignment.

Greetings

PS: As far as I'm concerned, the "much lower rates" issue is just the icing of the cake.

[Edited at 2009-11-14 23:36 GMT]


Yes, that is exactly what I thought. Why would an agency ask for a CV if they were assuming that somebody else would do the job? In my opinion, this sort of behaviour is unethical and possibly the reason why I would have never thought of it. But perhaps I am just not "market-minded" or greedy enough. I would never ever dream of paying peanuts to a colleague and pocket the lion's share for perhaps a bit of proofreading.


 

Laurent KRAULAND  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 09:49
French to German
+ ...
A notion Nov 15, 2009

I am sorry to disagree with wordsatlarge's and jyuan_us's posts, but there is an implicit notion that was always part of translation contracts (a contract being an agreement between two entities, no matter if written out or not). And this notion is intuitu personae... Period. Forget that notion and you can also forget about your skills, competences and the like.

Edited as the mentioned posts are not stricto sensu "above mine" anymore...

[Edited at 2009-11-15 07:51 GMT]


 
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