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Translation Workspace / Lionbridge CAT tool
Thread poster: sasp

Laurent KRAULAND (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 17:24
French to German
+ ...
Please don't confuse everything!!! Oct 29, 2010

Pablo Bouvier wrote:

Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:

...but being asked to pay for the use of a proprietary tool is not OK.

It is perfectly OK if this company asks you to use their tool. It is legitimate as it helps them work more efficiently and deliver a better service to their customers. However, I would only pay for the use of the tool is there was a written guarantee that they would give me a constant quantity of work equivalent to 25% of my usual throughput, and at a reasonable rate.

Working for a low rate, being forced to use their proprietary tool, and being forced to be a customer to their CAT tool business as part of the deal is not quite my idea of an interesting customer...



I am sorry Tomás, but this time I can not agree with you. It is true that agencies are entitled to require the use of a specific CAT tool. But not when they use (illegally) your intellectual work (storing it in their translation memory servers and reusing it at their convenience) without your consent, get you paid to do it or not.


Disagreeing with both Tomás and Pablo.
Agencies are not entitled to require the use of a specific CAT tool. They are entitled to expect a correct translation (using X or Y metrics, this is not the topic) for the price agreed upon.

Once again, I am under the impression that there is a (definitively gloomy and unhealthy) confusion between a) the content and b) the format of a translated file.

This confusion opens the doors of decadence even wider, which we really don't need!

What this "industry" needs... IMHO: a good kick in the pants so it can return to more O-B-J-E-C-T-I-V-I-T-Y!

[Edited at 2010-10-29 18:52 GMT]


 

Nicolás Vercesi
Local time: 13:24
English to Spanish
+ ...
Yeah... and this is what they're telling their investors on the other hand: Oct 29, 2010

Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:

Anyone got the same e-mail I just got from Liox? I'm still in their database and the message really cracked me up.



I got it today as well, and quickly remembered that the latest Multilingual issue had announced LIOX's increase in 10% in revenue in comparison with last year's...

Look at this as well:

http://www.lionbridge.com/lionbridge/en-US/company/news/lionbridge-reports-highest-quarterly-profit-in-its-history-2010Q2-earnings.htm


Who are they trying to fool?

[Editado a las 2010-10-29 18:53 GMT]


 

Laurent KRAULAND (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 17:24
French to German
+ ...
Simply put: Oct 29, 2010

Nicolás Vercesi wrote:

Who are they trying to fool?


themselves.


 

Klaus Lauble  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:24
Member (2004)
English to German
+ ...
Demanding (!) discounts and bragging about highest profits ever... Oct 29, 2010

Nicolás, thanks a lot for this very interesting link you've posted. They couldn't make their real intentions any clearer than that, I guess...

At least now I know exactly what I'll have to tell them when they offer me the next job, trying to impose their forced discount...


 

Stanislav Pokorny  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 17:24
English to Czech
+ ...
Rates up! Oct 29, 2010

Nicolás Vercesi wrote:

I got it today as well, and quickly remembered that the latest Multilingual issue had announced LIOX's increase in 10% in revenue in comparison with last year's...


Well, if there was a 10% increase in their revenues, I guess it's time for us to increase our rates by the same 10%.


 

Daniel García
English to Spanish
+ ...
A customer can require what they need. A contractor can choose to offer it or not Oct 30, 2010

Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Disagreeing with both Tomás and Pablo.
Agencies are not entitled to require the use of a specific CAT tool. They are entitled to expect a correct translation (using X or Y metrics, this is not the topic) for the price agreed upon.


I beg to disagree.

A translation service is a service agreement between two parties who agree on what is delivered.

In this case, the service is a translation performed within a given time frame using specific tools for a specific price.

A translation company they can define the job to be performed as they wish.

As a freelance translator, you can agree or not to offer that service or negotiate the economic compensation.

That's it. Nobody is "entitled" to anything. Nobody is "forces" to do anything.

It's a matter of agreement, not a matter of "entitlements".

A different story is the market situation and how strong one's negotiation position is.

Daniel


 

Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 17:24
English to Polish
+ ...
just to be precise Oct 30, 2010

First of all, they're bragging about the Q2 profits and complaining about the Q3 economic environment. It's not paranoia at the first glance.

Second of all, the Q2 profits may very well be bogus. The tale of Liox refusing to pay a due invoice before the end of the quarter tells the tale of how real their cash flow statement may be. And earnings are much easier to manipulate.

It is paranoia, however, when you think about it, as nobody sane would demand discounts based on a single weaker quarter - not to mention the fact that they're spending insane amounts of money on Translation Workspace, which pretty much everybody seems to hate. The fact that users hate this piece of software can't stop them.

In short, Liox think it's just idiots working for them.


 

Laurent KRAULAND (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 17:24
French to German
+ ...
:) Oct 30, 2010

Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:

In short, Liox think it's just idiots working for them.


I like your financial hand-ons analysis, Krzysztof...icon_razz.gif

[Edited at 2010-10-30 11:10 GMT]


 

Charlie Bavington (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:24
French to English
In a free market... Oct 30, 2010

Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Agencies are not entitled to require the use of a specific CAT tool. They are entitled to expect a correct translation (using X or Y metrics, this is not the topic) for the price agreed upon.


.... surely any client can request anything (lawful) they so please. It is up to suppliers to agree or disagree or meet any given requirement, in exchange for filthy lucre or some other consideration as agreed by the parties.

You, or anyone, is perfectly entitled to say "this is what I supply, take it or leave it". That is your prerogative as a free agent, of course. But the scope of your supply is not necessarily the scope of the supply of the entire market. We each of us have things we will and won't agree to do, as suppliers. And customers have varying requirements. Some of us will meet them, some won't. Agencies are therefore entitled to require whatever they like, if they can find someone to do it for the money.

I happen to believe anyone who works for L. needs to have a stern word with themselves, and given some of the legislation in the UK, I also happen to have concerns that their new arrangements are of dubious legality, but there seems to be a vast reserve of people willing to continue to unquestioningly lick their corporate boots, and their chairman is the one in a chauffeur driven limo, not me, so who's the fool?


 

Adam Łobatiuk  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 17:24
Member (2009)
English to Polish
+ ...
Another interesting press release Oct 30, 2010

Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
not to mention the fact that they're spending insane amounts of money on Translation Workspace, which pretty much everybody seems to hate. The fact that users hate this piece of software can't stop them.


I love this older gem (July 28) of a press release: http://www.lionbridge.com/lionbridge/en-US/company/news/lionbridge-translation-workspace-fastest-growing-saas-based-language-productivity-platform.htm

Lionbridge Technologies, Inc. (Nasdaq: LIOX) today announced that Translation Workspace, its Software-as-a-Service (SaaS)-based translation productivity platform has surpassed its initial subscriber targets. In the first 100 days, more than 1600 translators and agencies in more than 50 countries have adopted Translation Workspace.


The first 100 days included the free trial period for everyone, so they must have included even those who gave up.

Now, on non-US pages they state:
We work with a network of 25,000 independent translation partners.
(http://www.lionbridge.com/lionbridge/en-GB/company.htm)

That means only about 6% of their freelancers subscribed initially, including those who didn't continue the subscription after the trial was over. How's that for an "initial subscriber target", keeping in mind that virtually all of the translation work was to be done via Translation Workspace.


 

Laurent KRAULAND (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 17:24
French to German
+ ...
Exactly my point. Oct 30, 2010

Daniel García wrote:

That's it. Nobody is "entitled" to anything. Nobody is "forces" to do anything.

It's a matter of agreement, not a matter of "entitlements".

A different story is the market situation and how strong one's negotiation position is.

Daniel


(my emphasis)

Exactly my point, Daniel - and hence my remark that this industry needs more objectivity. When the main criterion for selecting a service provider and agreeing with them upon the services to perform rests upon the use of a given software, then we are deep in subjectivity.

And this, I feel, cannot bring any good neither for the present, nor for the future.


 

Pablo Bouvier  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:24
German to Spanish
+ ...
Please don't confuse everything!!! Oct 30, 2010

Laurent KRAULAND wrote:

Pablo Bouvier wrote:

Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:

...but being asked to pay for the use of a proprietary tool is not OK.

It is perfectly OK if this company asks you to use their tool. It is legitimate as it helps them work more efficiently and deliver a better service to their customers. However, I would only pay for the use of the tool is there was a written guarantee that they would give me a constant quantity of work equivalent to 25% of my usual throughput, and at a reasonable rate.

Working for a low rate, being forced to use their proprietary tool, and being forced to be a customer to their CAT tool business as part of the deal is not quite my idea of an interesting customer...



I am sorry Tomás, but this time I can not agree with you. It is true that agencies are entitled to require the use of a specific CAT tool. But not when they use (illegally) your intellectual work (storing it in their translation memory servers and reusing it at their convenience) without your consent, get you paid to do it or not.


Disagreeing with both Tomás and Pablo.
Agencies are not entitled to require the use of a specific CAT tool. They are entitled to expect a correct translation (using X or Y metrics, this is not the topic) for the price agreed upon.

Once again, I am under the impression that there is a (definitively gloomy and unhealthy) confusion between a) the content and b) the format of a translated file.

This confusion opens the doors of decadence even wider, which we really don't need!

What this "industry" needs... IMHO: a good kick in the pants so it can return to more O-B-J-E-C-T-I-V-I-T-Y


mmmhhhh, this time I reconn you're absolutely right Laurent. icon_rolleyes.gif
But while the tool is not so important, what still remains important (at least imho) is what such tool/s enables them to do: «to steal»...





[Edited at 2010-10-30 20:53 GMT]


 

Klaus Lauble  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:24
Member (2004)
English to German
+ ...
More angry comments about their discount order Oct 30, 2010

Hi all,

Here is some more direct feedback to Lionbridge about their notorious discount email:

http://workingathometranslatormum.wordpress.com/2010/10/29/discounts-required/

And here's what I wrote to Mr. Hélin via my local vendor manager (since Didier Hélin didn't bother to include a reply address in his mail):

Dear Mr Hélin,

This is to let you know that I have received your email dated 29/10/10. Honestly, I have to tell you I find your attitude quite strange, to require from your vendors to grant you a discount. I've had several clients that have asked me for a discount, but so far no-one tried to impose a discount on me without my consent. Let me tell you politely but frankly that I am not ready to grant Lionbridge such a discount, particularly considering that your company has achieved record profits in 2010 according to your own website (http://www.lionbridge.com/lionbridge/en-US/company/news/lionbridge-reports-highest-quarterly-profit-in-its-history-2010Q2-earnings.html ) and that your company has been trying to make me and all of your vendors pay for the honor of working for them via the Translation Workspace license fees.

Regards,
Klaus Lauble

[Edited at 2010-10-31 09:28 GMT]


 

riafontes
Spain
Local time: 16:24
Portuguese to English
+ ...
About CAT Tools Oct 30, 2010

I think the following have something to do with this discussion.
Although I do have and use, with some precaution, SDL Trados, not being this program exclusive as far as acceptance and output in a specific and unique type of file is concerned, I wonder why many companies demand that the translator has and work with that program. If what really matters is the final translation with the required quality and within the specified time frame, why are those companies concerned if the translation is done by hand, with a pencil or with a pen, if it is used a now respectable and near obsolete computer due to its age or the last one announced in the market with bluetooth, web camera and millions of gigabytes, a simple text program or SDL Trados of doubtful results in many cases and requiring lots of corrections? Would not be that, demanding the use of SDL Trados, not cheap nor easy to work with and requiring a lot of power to work properly, and for which they have not contributed with a penny for the acquisition, they pretend to justify a very low price from the translator with the false pretension that the translator has a much higher performance and output and so have to give them a much lower price? Someone close to me caricaturized the agencies that accept to post the jobs requirements for those companies as "supplying a reef where sharks come and pray for little fish". Do we want to carry on being little fish? Can anything be done about it?


 

Laurent KRAULAND (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 17:24
French to German
+ ...
What can be done? Oct 31, 2010

riahurtado wrote:
Someone close to me caricaturized the agencies that accept to post the jobs requirements for those companies as "supplying a reef where sharks come and pray for little fish". Do we want to carry on being little fish? Can anything be done about it?


To stop software publishers from brainwashing translators anymore, one thing that could be done would be to deny said publishers access to translation classes at universities in order to sell their CAT tools to students at a fraction of the RMP... Because, and forgive me everybody for stating the obvious, there is also free software available if one wants to learn the functioning of CAT.

ETA: by "fraction", I mean not more than 25% of the RMP in the cases I know about, an offer which also came via some translation agencies.

[Edited at 2010-10-31 09:06 GMT]


 
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