| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | How to get/not get a job on ProZ.com (outsourcer description of own methodology) Thread poster: Edward Potter
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| I don't see the link... | Apr 1, 2004 |
Edward Potter wrote:
This resonancy which you most certainly have with your agency clients will likely show up in product quality. Good luck to you.
I don't really see the link between the two... you can suck up to agencies and still be a crap translator... Can you explain?
Having a good relationship with agencies doesn't guarantee quality... on the contrary, I would be wary of overly eager people.
Answer to Todd later....
Giovanni
| | | | Edward Potter 
Spain
Local time: 22:13
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | The link between a positive attitude and quality | Apr 1, 2004 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: Edward Potter wrote:
This resonancy which you most certainly have with your agency clients will likely show up in product quality. Good luck to you. I don't really see the link between the two... you can suck up to agencies and still be a crap translator... Can you explain? Having a good relationship with agencies doesn't guarantee quality... on the contrary, I would be wary of overly eager people. Answer to Todd later.... Giovanni
Dear Giovanni,
In answering your question, there is a very clear link between a positive attitude and quality, which I opine is intrinsic. However, there have been many studies carried out on work productivity that scientifically support this little opinion of mine.
But let me define quality a bit. Quality is having your agreed-upon work finished on time. Quality is being available to answer questions. Quality is having the available resources. Quality is knowing how to find answers. Quality is sticking to the terms of your agreement at all costs. Quality is being positive, optimistic, communicative and easy to deal with. Quality is knowing your language and subject.
A happy, optimistic worker is more likely to carry these things out. Such a person will project confidence, the ability to do such. A resentful attitude towards the people with whom you have a working relationship means a lower level of motivation, uncaring. A negative attitude will take away this trust.
If I'm reading you right, you seem to be very emotional about this and are misreading what has been said. We were not talking about a sycophantic attitude towards one's business partners (which is rather pathetic, agreed); we were talking about how to act professionally, part of which is holding a positive attitude, and, of course, producing a quality service in all of its aspects.
This is the explanation you have asked for.
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Edward Potter wrote:
In answering your question, there is a very clear link between a positive attitude and quality, which I opine is intrinsic. However, there have been many studies carried out on work productivity that scientifically support this little opinion of mine.
This still does not guarantee you quality, but I understand it can be a factor when selecting a freelancer.
But let me define quality a bit. Quality is having your agreed-upon work finished on time. Quality is being available to answer questions. Quality is having the available resources. Quality is knowing how to find answers. Quality is sticking to the terms of your agreement at all costs. Quality is being positive, optimistic, communicative and easy to deal with. Quality is knowing your language and subject.
Agree, although it's a bit draconian to say that one has to stick to the terms of the agreement **at all costs**. Things can go wrong and the parties have to be able to communicate in case of problems, without diktats.
If I'm reading you right, you seem to be very emotional about this and are misreading what has been said.
No, I'm not being emotional, but it annoys me when freelancers are expected to be "grateful" for the work they are given by agencies. It works both ways and I don't feel like I have to be grateful if an agency gives me work, because it's a business transaction and we both gain form it. It's this unilateral approach (we are the agency and you are lucky that we give you work) that I find unacceptable. That's all.
This is the explanation you have asked for.
Thanks for taking the time...
Giovanni
[Edited at 2004-04-02 07:53]
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 22:13
German to English
+ ...
Edward,
Firstly let me say that I agree with all the points you grouped in your post under the broad heading of "quality". I hope that they describe my working relationship with my agency customers, which I consider to be very good.
Giovanni, though, was addressing specific points, and as far as those points are concerned I agree with him wholeheartedly. Those points were:
Platinum membership. People have different reasons for paying for Platinum. I think a... See more Edward,
Firstly let me say that I agree with all the points you grouped in your post under the broad heading of "quality". I hope that they describe my working relationship with my agency customers, which I consider to be very good.
Giovanni, though, was addressing specific points, and as far as those points are concerned I agree with him wholeheartedly. Those points were:
Platinum membership. People have different reasons for paying for Platinum. I think a major reason for many people is simply to support ProZ. But equally, a lot of people quite obviously pay for Platinum because they think it makes them look professional. For that very reason, the same people hype up the connection between Platinum and professionalism, making it a pseudo-qualification. Placing Platinum and membership of a professional association on the same level, as you did, is totally unjustified; professional associations have membership requirements and professional codes of conduct, neither of which applies to Platinum. Frankly, I wouldn't mind donating 120 Euros to ProZ for the value that I derive from it, but I quite categorically do NOT want the word "Platinum" next to my name.
Common sense. As Giovanni says, most of the points you made should on the whole be obvious to any professional. (The others, such as the value of Platinum or KudoZ points, are highly dubious.) So who exactly was your advice intended for? ProZ is an unregulated market-place and it's therefore inevitable that when you post a job you'll be be inundated with offers from unqualified hopefuls. Why not just delete them? It seems to me as though you are trying to teach the unqualified and inexperienced to hide the fact. Why not be grateful that the standard of presentation says something about the person behind it? Conversely, if you don't like deleting all those unwanted mails, perhaps you should be looking elsewhere for suppliers. That can just as well be on ProZ; judging members by their profiles and posts and contacting them directly is a strategy some outsourcers follow, and it strikes me as a good one.
Gratitude. I believe very strongly that translators need to have a close working relationship with their customers (agency or direct). I enjoy working for my agency customers, but I don't know that "gratitude" is an apt description. I certainly don't think my customers should be grateful that I deliver good work on time. They should expect it! Perhaps this is just a minor semantic point. But let's be clear about one thing: translators can survive without agencies, but not vice-versa, so if gratitude is called for, then on the part of the agency.
Overly eager people. Good customer relations are one thing, but falling over yourself to "get that ProZ job" is another. If you're a good translator, it's sufficient to make that fact known in the right places, and the customers will come to you. Who is more likely to be the better translator - the one chasing every job, or the one who never has time?
Prices and ballparks. Giovanni specifically addressed Sandra Alboum's comment that it is "unrealistic" for an agency to charge $0.20/word. Well, according to my calculations (different billing method), I am typically charging $0.19/word to my agency customers, and I presume they're not working for a loss. If an agency wants translation work done properly in Germany, that's the kind of figure it can expect to have to pay, and I don't believe that the cost or standard of living in Canada is substantially lower than that in Germany. Not only that, but it's the translator's prerogative to decide how much she thinks her work is worth, just as it's the customer's prerogative to decide whether he's willing to pay that or not. This brings us back to your comment that you know what you are "willing to pay. The bid has to be somewhere in the ballpark". As I say, that's your prerogative. But making that prerogative part of your advice to bidders is rather like putting the fox in charge of the chicken-pen. My advice to "bidders" would be the opposite: offer a professional service, and charge a professional price.
Marc ▲ Collapse
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Edward Potter
Spain
Local time: 22:13
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Giovanni,
I am beginning to see more clearly what you are saying. Some comments below...
But let me define quality a bit. Quality is having your agreed-upon work finished on time. Quality is being available to answer questions. Quality is having the available resources. Quality is knowing how to find answers. Quality is sticking to the terms of your agreement at all costs. Quality is being positive, optimistic, communicative and easy to deal with. Quality is knowing your language and subject.
Agree, although it's a bit draconian to say that one has to stick to the terms of the agreement **at all costs**. Things can go wrong and the parties have to be able to communicate in case of problems, without diktats.
I imagined someone would make that comment. Yes, that was an absolute comment I made. Okay, let's tone it down to 99%, to allow for some extreme situations. I believe one of the most precious assets we all have is our own word. Just ask yourslef, "how much is my word worth" and you will have answered how reliable you are.
it annoys me when freelancers are expected to be "grateful" for the work they are given by agencies. It works both ways and I don't feel like I have to be grateful if an agency gives me work, because it's a business transaction and we both gain form it. It's this unilateral approach (we are the agency and you are lucky that we give you work) that I find unacceptable. That's all.
I think I now understand. I agree that a business transaction should not be "unilateral". The very fact the two parties made an agreement means that each is giving and receiving something. There should be a mutual respect between the two parties. Distrust and negative feelings will end up not working out. If the work is pleasant for both sides then the business relationship has a better chance of prospering.
Thanks for taking the time...
[Edited at 2004-04-02 07:53]
Sure.
| | | | Jianjun Zhang
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Pricing and outsourcing China | May 26, 2005 |
First of all, let me thank Edward for starting this thread and sharing his valuable insights with all of us. Then, after reading each and every post here, I began to think about situations faced by Chinese translators and what's happening in China.
If you have time to browse through profiles of Chinese translators, you'll not be surprised to find $0.05/word and lower rates. And most outsourcers (no matter which country they come from) won't even consider that a fair deal. They simpl... See more First of all, let me thank Edward for starting this thread and sharing his valuable insights with all of us. Then, after reading each and every post here, I began to think about situations faced by Chinese translators and what's happening in China.
If you have time to browse through profiles of Chinese translators, you'll not be surprised to find $0.05/word and lower rates. And most outsourcers (no matter which country they come from) won't even consider that a fair deal. They simply want to pay much less than that for the same quality job they expect of a translator charging $0.15-0.20. I know, as you mentioned above, this agency-freelancer relationship is also business transaction. I know that agencies also have mouths to feed. I know that many people think that China is a developing country and its living standard is so low that any price is a price good enough for their lives. But are these justified toward translation as a profession and translators as professionals?
Do we Chinese translators pay less on PCs? Does Microsoft have special discounts for Chinese translators? Do we pay less on online services? Don't we Chinese translators purchase reference books and software? I personally own nine major paper dictionaries totalling more than 600 US dollars (converted value), let alone reference books of other nature such as encyclopedias. And what about our education? Without proper education, training sessions and workshops to update and finetune our skills we lag behind colleagues in richer countries and how can anybody expect us to offer still quality work? I don't know about the details of health insurance programs for the self-employed especially translators in all your country. But I know I can't afford to pay for my own medical insurance as a freelancer - actually I have no insurance of any kind at all.
What I am trying to say is that many agencies outsourcing to Chinese translators are simply taking advantage of us. This is unfair. If you are looking for some crap translators that are willing to do your job at $5/1,000 words (I'm not joking), you still have them sending in CVs until your mailbox explode. But does that justify you pay low price for the professional quality work by Chinese professionals?
Somebody would say, if you think I pay you so low, let's stop here! I have thousands of candidates out there waiting. But no way for me to raise even $0.001! These days I'm even considering going on my studies at university and being a professor teaching translation rather than doing business as no-class cheap labor.
But who causes this to happen? Thanks to the masses of people who profess to be translators but in fact just some college students who learned English for some years. Within China, they are the most active freelancers taking rock bottom rate jobs and pull the prices down drastically. The money they got is enough for sporting the latest model of Nokia or dating a girlfriend, because we generous Chinese parents offer to pay for them almost any expenses during their schooling. However, translators producing quality work and earning bread for the family can't afford this low pay. Once a self-professed translator from Shang Hai told me his maximum daily capacity was 8,000 source English words. That really surprised me. At that rate, even he was paid at $0.006 (according to him) I calculated he could earn about $48, while my own reasonable daily capacity is about 1,500-2,200 English source words maximum, provided I don't have to deal with tags and formats. If I were paid at the same rate, I'd rather give up being a translator and turn for something less laborious and demanding while earning more money. This is not only something about money, but about the dignity of being a professional.
Thanks for the reading. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mari Noller
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:13
English to Norwegian
+ ...
| About kudoz points | Jun 3, 2005 |
I have to say Mr. Potter, you should not judge a translator by the amount of Kudoz points they got.
On an average day I work over 18 hours, the only time I visit Kudoz is when I have a word I need help with. I might answer one or two questions if I got some spare time, but most of the time the correct answer has already been given
(for the Norwegian language there is a group of 4-5 translators who seem to live in the Kudoz area, making it impossible for someone else to earn a point.... See more I have to say Mr. Potter, you should not judge a translator by the amount of Kudoz points they got.
On an average day I work over 18 hours, the only time I visit Kudoz is when I have a word I need help with. I might answer one or two questions if I got some spare time, but most of the time the correct answer has already been given
(for the Norwegian language there is a group of 4-5 translators who seem to live in the Kudoz area, making it impossible for someone else to earn a point.. No offence to them of course). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Edward Potter
Spain
Local time: 22:13
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thanks for your comments | Jun 3, 2005 |
dinamin wrote:
I have to say Mr. Potter, you should not judge a translator by the amount of Kudoz points they got.
Thank you for your comments, Dinamin. Of course I do not judge a translator exclusively by the amount of Kudoz points they got. I only have a couple Kudoz myself but I have many other ways of proving that I am a good translator.
At the session I gave at the Proz Conference at Oxford I mentioned that there are many factors that might be taken into account. Also, each outsourcer is different so not everyone will make their decisions the same way I do. In the end it is all common sense, isn't it?
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Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 23:13
English to Russian
| Thanks for great info! | Oct 4, 2005 |
Thanks for the wonderful tips and opinions, folks!
Best of luck!
Alex
[Edited at 2005-10-09 15:07]
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