Pages in topic:   [1 2 3 4] >
Applying the Woodstock Principle “Tsk Tsk”
Thread poster: Marina Steinbach

Marina Steinbach  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:02
Member
English to German
Nov 18, 2011

Today, I wrote a quotation for a rush translation job and was happy to receive a prompt answer, asking me to sign a declaration of confidentiality.

After having done this, I was told that the translation for this weekend was placed otherwise, but that they would need a proofreader on Monday. Would I be available, and if so, what would my rate per hour for proofreading be.

I applied the Woodstock Principle “Tsk Tsk” and told them that I do not proofread.

Is this a new method for clients trying to reduce translation costs?


 

Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 20:02
Member (2005)
English to Russian
+ ...
How does that help the client reduce costs? Nov 18, 2011

The situation just begs the question.

 

Marina Steinbach  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:02
Member
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
That's simple... Nov 18, 2011

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:

The situation just begs the question.


...proofreading jobs are less paid than translation jobs.

AND, the translation job is still available on ProZ...

[Edited at 2011-11-18 22:29 GMT]


 

Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 20:02
Member (2005)
English to Russian
+ ...
Further comments Nov 18, 2011

The client still has to find a translator and pay them, don't they? The fact they don't hire *you* to do the translation doesn't reduce their costs - it only reduces the amount of business you stand to gain from them through this particular transaction.

Or do you mean to say that they had already found a translator before even approaching you? I suppose they could have 'tricked' you into signing their NDA by asking for a translation service, while what they wanted from you all along was a proofreading service. It's not a nice thing to do, but you'd never know for sure, right?

Perhaps they prefer to contact as many potential candidates as possible so they can pick and choose. I see this kind of thing all the time, and usually I accept the review/editing/proofreading offer. Now, I do offer those services. If you don't, well, you invested a little bit of your time into getting to know this new client and if you're courteous and professional, then in all likelihood they well send other jobs your way in the future.


 

Marina Steinbach  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:02
Member
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
To betray some secrets... Nov 18, 2011

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:

I suppose they could have 'tricked' you into signing their NDA by asking for a translation service, while what they wanted from you all along was a proofreading service.


Just recently, I agreed to work for a "big" company in our business offering a large translation volume at a rate of 0.12 $ per word. I had my translations proofread, and delivered the jobs so quickly that the proofreaders had to stop further translations, as they were not able to catch up with their work. Two weeks later they offered me a proofreader job at a rate of 0.02 $ per word.

Now, who do you think is trying to save expenses, Mikhail?


 

Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 20:02
Member (2005)
English to Russian
+ ...
The price of tea in China Nov 18, 2011

I don't mean to bicker about this, but your addition has little to do with the point I was making. The *total* cost of the translation for the client still includes *both* translation and editing/proofreading, so even if it's not YOU doing the translation, someone else has to.

Moreover, clients are free to make any offers they like, just as you're free to set your own rates. I never agree to a rate offered by any client unless it exceeds my target rate.

If you feel that the client means to take advantage of you by getting your superior quality for less, by making you proofread poor translations, there's a perfect opportunity to set them straight. Quote them an editing/proofreading rate that you're actually happy with and explain why it's worth it. If they don't buy it (pun intended), look for other clients who value quality enough to pay for it.


 

Marina Steinbach  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:02
Member
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
Now you're starting to understand me... Nov 18, 2011

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:

If they don't buy it (pun intended), look for other clients who value quality enough to pay for it.


That's an interesting twist.
Where would you advise me to look for clients, who value my quality and would pay enough for it?

icon_smile.gif


 

Joshua Pepper  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:02
French to English
+ ...
What is... Nov 18, 2011

What is the Woodstock Principle?
It resisted my first Googling attempts.


 

Russell Jones  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:02
Italian to English
Begging the question Nov 18, 2011



The situation just begs the question.


If I may contribute an off-topic comment - in the spirit of helpfulness rather than criticism:

"Begging the question does not mean to raise the issue. It means to present as true a premise that requires proof--i.e., taking a conclusion for granted before it is proved or assuming in the premises of your argument what is supposed to be proved in the conclusion."

The expression is very, very widely misused by English native speakers but I hope some fellow linguists will find this useful.


 

Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:02
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
Thank you, Russell Nov 19, 2011

Russell Jones wrote:



The situation just begs the question.


If I may contribute an off-topic comment - in the spirit of helpfulness rather than criticism:

"Begging the question does not mean to raise the issue. It means to present as true a premise that requires proof--i.e., taking a conclusion for granted before it is proved or assuming in the premises of your argument what is supposed to be proved in the conclusion."

The expression is very, very widely misused by English native speakers but I hope some fellow linguists will find this useful.


At last someone understands the meaning (and frequent misuse) of this so often misunderstood and misinterpreted expression.
Jenny


 

Woodstock  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 19:02
Member (2005)
German to English
+ ...
Woodstock Principle "Tsk Tsk": That would be me, lol Nov 19, 2011

Joshua Pepper wrote:

What is the Woodstock Principle?
It resisted my first Googling attempts.


You wouldn't find it in Google (yet) for a very good reason: No one except Marina knows what it is.icon_biggrin.gif In another thread about rate rants, I stated my philosophy about it:

"Personally, I tend not to get involved in these rates discussions, just read them occasionally to see if anything has changed, see that it hasn't, say "tsk tsk" to myself about the greedy agencies who are interested only in quantity and don't appreciate quality work, and move on. It's been that way since I got here 6 years ago and will probably continue long after I'm gone. I also get plenty of unsolicited offers via the ProZ directories, but most of them are not acceptable, so I write a polite "Thanks, but no thanks unless you can meet my rate requirements", end of story. Getting all worked up about it either way consumes time and energy needlessly, so after adding my 2 cents here, I'm going back to my rather large, decently-paid translation assignment without having raised my blood pressure. Ciao!"

It seems that Marina liked my attitude and took it to heart - I'm flattered. Thank you, Marina!

But back to the topic of proofreading, I had never considered that it would be a cheap way for a translation agency to save on quality, as I rarely do them, simply because I find it hard to make corrections without changing the entire text to suit my style - which defeats the purpose, of course. Regarding price: The cost of both translation and proofreading are included in the quotation to the client, so while Marina may have a point, I'm not positive it applies in general or would always be the case. She certainly is entitled to her opinion on it, though.

P.S. Am I famous now??icon_wink.gif

On edit: added a clause for clarity

[Edited at 2011-11-19 07:16 GMT]


 

Emma Goldsmith  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 19:02
Member (2010)
Spanish to English
Give all your rates from the start Nov 19, 2011

Agencies often approach me to ask for my translation rates for a certain project. I always give my full list (for translation, proofreading, per hour, rush rate, minimum rate) so we both know where we stand. If the agency comes back to me a couple of days later to ask me to proofread the job, I'm happy to do it.

The chances are that the agency has decided to give the translation to someone who has offered a lower rate. However, if it is willing to pay me my agreed proofreading rate, that's not a problem for me (as long as the translation quality is reasonable).

I recommend stating all rates upfront.


 

Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:02
Hebrew to English
On assuming the conclusion Nov 19, 2011

Mark Liberman writes an extensive review of "beg the question" on his blog:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2290

His advice is to simple avoid using it altogether, in either of its definitions. I'm inclined to agree with him; I'd simply say "raise the issue" when I mean "raise the issue" and "assume the conclusion" when I mean "assume the conclusion".

It would better all round to consign this phrase (born out of dodgy medieval translation) to some dusty book on philology on a linguist's shelf. The language will go on just fine without it.

On topic:

Woodstock Principle : What an homage!icon_smile.gif


 

Woodstock  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 19:02
Member (2005)
German to English
+ ...
Woodstock Principle Nov 19, 2011

Ty Kendall wrote:

On topic:

Woodstock Principle : What an homage!icon_smile.gif


No kidding! It made my day, and will keep me chuckling for days, to be sure. Bwahahaha! I wonder how many people will stumble over the title and click on it, just to find out what it means. The number of visitors to my profile has had an astonishing increase this morning* - I'm just tickled to pieces.icon_biggrin.gif

*Not that that will ...ahem.."translate" into new business, however.

On edit: added asterisk





[Edited at 2011-11-19 10:31 GMT]


 

Russell Jones  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:02
Italian to English
The Porky principle? Nov 19, 2011

Ty Kendall wrote:

It would better all round to consign this phrase (born out of dodgy medieval translation) to some dusty book on philology on a linguist's shelf. The language will go on just fine without it.



Thanks for the link Ty.
The correct usage has already been pretty much consigned "to some dusty book on philology on a linguist's shelf", while the incorrect one is spreading like wildfire.
Users won't abandon it - the best idea I agree - without learning about the error.

On topic: just checked the meaning of the Woodstock principle; just lying, basically. (Well Woodstock wasn't in Woodstock anyway so it's in character).

Faced with a urgent technical schedule full of company jargon and non-standard abbreviations in a scanned pdf from a regular client - am I the only one who is fully committed today?


 
Pages in topic:   [1 2 3 4] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

Applying the Woodstock Principle “Tsk Tsk”

Advanced search







SDL Trados Studio 2019 Freelance
The leading translation software used by over 250,000 translators.

SDL Trados Studio 2019 has evolved to bring translators a brand new experience. Designed with user experience at its core, Studio 2019 transforms how new users get up and running, helps experienced users make the most of the powerful features, ensures new

More info »
Wordfast Pro
Translation Memory Software for Any Platform

Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users! Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value

More info »



Forums
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search