| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40] > | What is your definition of “native speaker” and why does it matter to you to have a definition? Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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| Bernhard Sulzer 
United States
Local time: 20:16
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thomas Frost wrote:
You appear to approve of the practice of choosing a native translator over a non-native, even if the two bring the same skills to the table, because the statistical probability of a good result is much higher by choosing a native.
I don't hold that the linguistic proficiency of a native speaker and a non-native speaker are the same. I based that on the different way one acquires a language from childhood and in the cultural environment of that language.
"Same skills" is the term I used in the comment of mine you cited above with regard to the copywriters, no matter what their skin color is.
I would see them both as "native speakers" if you relate that to our field, if we take, for the sake of comparison, "same skills" of the two copywriters as the criterion equivalent to "native language." They would be different from non-natives.
So it would be unfair to choose one over the other if both have the same skills or, related to our field, are "native speakers." The selection should be based on additional factors. That doesn't mean "native language" shouldn't be a very important factor/criterion. And it doesn't mean selecting a native speaker over a non-native is necessarily unfair. It would seem the opposite could be much more easily perceived as unfair. Or if a speaker claims to be native but he/she's not.
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It is not very often that I understand what Samuel writes, but in this case he nailed it:
Samuel Murray wrote:
It may actually be due to the oversupply. There are so many bad translators out there that we need to squeeze every possible criterion out of a list of translators to ensure that we have a high chance of not getting a bad translation. There are too many people who claim to be translators, who aren't really skilled at it, and who produce bad, unidiomatic translations. Asking for a native speaker is one way we hope to ensure that the translator will at least not produce something unidiomatic.
The native speaker criterion becomes unnecessary if we can be certain that the translators we choose are good translators who will produce idiomatic translations.
As an outsourcer I have to make sure to find the best translator for the job. "Native" is one criterion we use to try to discriminate (Merriam Webster : to notice and understand that one thing is different from another thing : to recognize a difference between things) translators who can handle the job from translators who can't.
It is just one aspect, nothing else. It is not better or worse than red P, or paying Proz member or not, or ATA/ITI/BDÜ member.
In my opinion it might make more sense to discuss which factors might help outsourcers to find qualified translators. As long as these factors are unknown, weak factors such as "native speaker" will be used, and every outsourcer will use his/her own definition. There is no need to discuss it here at all.
There are way too many bad translators (and this applies specially to platforms like this one) , any filter to reduce the number of unqualified translators is ok, even if we loose some qualified candidates in the process.
And please, don't start telling me that the red P resolves this problem. No, it does not.
| | | | | This discussion, even if very interesting, is totally pointless. | Oct 13, 2014 |
The only purpose I can see in it, would be venting--the desire to vent, and express certain concerns or ideas that might be haunting some of the members. I am very passionate about this subject myself, since I see one of the biggest potentials for discrimination here.
People are discussing 'native speakers' as they were talking about candy or flowers, when in fact they are discussing things very similar to the race issues, ethnicities, sexual orientations, etc.
Most ... See more The only purpose I can see in it, would be venting--the desire to vent, and express certain concerns or ideas that might be haunting some of the members. I am very passionate about this subject myself, since I see one of the biggest potentials for discrimination here.
People are discussing 'native speakers' as they were talking about candy or flowers, when in fact they are discussing things very similar to the race issues, ethnicities, sexual orientations, etc.
Most of the things suggested here would be totally illegal--in the United States, at least.
As to my personal concerns or worries about native speakers and non-native speakers --I do not care who is applying for the jobs in my language pairs--if they are better--let them have the jobs.
I do not see any danger in the quality expected, or too much competition--the rates are the problem--often the cheaper translators get many jobs, but I get some as well. Plus, I have a lot of direct clients that I've known for years. So, it is not about the jobs, on my part, but strictly about the principles. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Is it possible for someone not to have any native language? | Oct 13, 2014 |
Everyone can have their L1, their strongest language, but "strongest" does not necessarily equal "native".
I read somewhere, and I agree with the statement, that native speakers are the best judges as to whether another candidate is also a native speaker. That's the most difficult acceptance criterion.
If I may mention names: Bernhard's English - even more so Samuel's - is of an extremely high standard, considerably higher than that of some peers we encounter every day... See more Everyone can have their L1, their strongest language, but "strongest" does not necessarily equal "native".
I read somewhere, and I agree with the statement, that native speakers are the best judges as to whether another candidate is also a native speaker. That's the most difficult acceptance criterion.
If I may mention names: Bernhard's English - even more so Samuel's - is of an extremely high standard, considerably higher than that of some peers we encounter every day claiming to be native speakers, but whose language makes native speakers cringe. Are these peers delusional? I think they are, they're truly convinced....
Could that be because some peers don't have a language they master? That they were confronted with so many growing up that they never made it to native level in any?
Interesting topic.
Cilian ▲ Collapse
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| I wholeheartedly agree with Sigfried Armbruster | Oct 13, 2014 |
There are way too many bad translators who don't master their subject matter and therefore deliver very bad translations. So I can understand that outsourcers are using as many filters as possible. But according to my experience these filters are very approximative because they don't replace translation tests. The only way to find a competent translator is to test him/her for subject matter knowledge plus proficiency of the source language plus proficiency of the target language (whether native ... See more There are way too many bad translators who don't master their subject matter and therefore deliver very bad translations. So I can understand that outsourcers are using as many filters as possible. But according to my experience these filters are very approximative because they don't replace translation tests. The only way to find a competent translator is to test him/her for subject matter knowledge plus proficiency of the source language plus proficiency of the target language (whether native according to Bernhard's definition or not). ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Removed per poster's request. | | Discussing site features is not allowed | Oct 13, 2014 |
Thomas Frost wrote:
I would be interesting if you could tell us about your experiences with that, since these translators are supposed to have been screened. If that screening isn't good enough, maybe that's where the focus should be.
Sorry, discussing site features won't be tolerated by ProZ.
Maybe it isn't quite ok for those who are filtered out but who were qualified. ....
I know this sounds arrogant, but this is not my problem.
We moved our translator headhunting activities to other platforms, where we find better candidates. ProZ is still the largest platform, but we use it less and less. - No, we are not allowed to discuss or even mention other platforms here.
| | | | | The problem with tests... | Oct 13, 2014 |
Maria S. Loose wrote:
There are way too many bad translators who don't master their subject matter and therefore deliver very bad translations. So I can understand that outsourcers are using as many filters as possible. But according to my experience these filters are very approximative because they don't replace translation tests. The only way to find a competent translator is to test him/her for subject matter knowledge plus proficiency of the source language plus proficiency of the target language (whether native according to Bernhard's definition or not).
The problem with tests is who reviews the tests.
For instance, in the English-Spanish pair, the United States is full of Spanglish speakers who claim to speak Spanish proficiently, when in fact they speak a very defficient form of this language, and many times, those people, as translation agency owners or employees, they are the ones who "review" the English into Spanish tests.
The results are simply disastrous, and they do not even know it.
A true horror story.
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| Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Removed per poster's request. | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 20:16
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
As an outsourcer I have to make sure to find the best translator for the job. "Native" is one criterion we use to try to discriminate (Merriam Webster : to notice and understand that one thing is different from another thing : to recognize a difference between things) translators who can handle the job from translators who can't.
It is just one aspect, nothing else. It is not better or worse than red P, or paying Proz member or not, or ATA/ITI/BDÜ member.
Could you share your definition of "native speaker" then as I suggested we do and tell me why it matters to you to have that definition? Thank you.
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » What is your definition of “native speaker” and why does it matter to you to have a definition? | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
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