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Off topic: Reality vs Theory (or, ‘A Kaleidoscopic Symphony of Eurogibberish’)
Thread poster: Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer

Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:14
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Oct 21, 2014

The massive native speaker def. thread seems to have been locked, so I will continue my rant here.

If being a native speaker is unimportant, as some people said in the thread, then why is the biggest problem in the Dutch/English translation market today (at least from my lowly perspective) the fact that there are too many Dutch people translating into terrible English?

I try not to accept proofreading jobs these days. However, I occasionally let my guard down, and when I do, I invariably end up knee-deep in yet another steaming pile of Dunglish. Dunglish, in case you've never heard the term before, is usually written by a Dutch person who thinks his or her English is better than it really is. At first glance, it looks like English, but look a little deeper and you will see, hear and smell the rubbery cheese, windmills and tulips straining against the thin, crumbling dyke trying to stop the two languages from melting together in a kaleidoscopic symphony of Eurogibberish.

If there were more native English speakers out there translating from Dutch into English, I wouldn't have all this garbage to proofread. And although this frustrated rant might not sound very scientific, it certainly feels true, as I trudge through line after line of yet more confusing, ugly "English" for the umpteenth time this month…

we-hate-you-welcome

Michael

Suggested reading: Righting English That's Gone Dutch, by Joy Burrough-Boenisch

[Edited at 2014-10-21 22:09 GMT]


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:14
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Dunglish 101 Oct 22, 2014

Some more suggested reading:

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steenkolenengels + https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunglish
http://www.freedutch.nl/node/94
http://www.dunglish.nl/
http://www.makethatthecatwise.nl/

Also interesting:

"Language transfer

Language transfer (also known as L1 interference, linguistic interference, and crossmeaning) refers to speakers or writers applying knowledge from their native language to a second language. It is most commonly discussed in the context of English language learning and teaching, but it can occur in any situation when someone does not have a native-level command of a language, as when translating into a second language.

[…]

Language transfer produces distinctive forms of learner English, depending on the speaker's first language. Some examples, labeled with a blend of the names of the two languages in question, are:

Chinglish (Chinese)
Czenglish (Czech)
Denglisch (German)
Dunglish (Dutch)
Engrish or "Japlish" (Japanese)
Finglish (Finnish)
Franglais (French)
Greeklish (Greek)
Hinglish (Hindi)
Konglish (Korean)
Manglish (Malaysian)
Poglish (Polish)
Porglish (Portuguese)
Runglish (Russian)
Serblish (Serbian)
Spanglish (Spanish)
Swenglish (Swedish)
Taglish (Tagalog)
Tanglish (Tamil)
Tinglish (Thai)
Turklish (Turkish)
Yinglish (Yiddish)

Similar interference effects, of course, also involve languages other than English, such as French and Spanish (Frespañol), Portuguese and Spanish (Portuñol), or Catalan and Spanish (Catanyol).

These examples could be multiplied endlessly to reflect the linguistic interactions of speakers of the thousands of existing or extinct languages.

Such interference-language names are often also used informally to denote instances of code-switching, code-mixing, or borrowing (using loan words)." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_transfer )

Michael

[Edited at 2014-10-22 00:18 GMT]


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Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 03:14
Chinese to English
Respect the purity of Dunglish! Oct 22, 2014

China has its fair share of crazy nationalists, and one recently came up with the idea of declaring Chinglish a national standard. On this basis I declare you simply prejudiced against the speakers of Europaische.

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Victor Dewsbery  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 21:14
German to English
+ ...
New opportunities Oct 22, 2014

Translation job Porglish to Dunglish. Any takers?

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Usch Pilz
Local time: 21:14
English to German
+ ...
A poet! Oct 22, 2014

Michael wrote:

"At first glance, it looks like English, but look a little deeper and you will see, hear and smell the rubbery cheese, windmills and tulips straining against the thin, crumbling dyke trying to stop the two languages from melting together in a kaleidoscopic symphony of Eurogibberish."

You are a poet on top of everything else!

And I second.
Same thing happens to me a lot with German texts.
(And now we go and make ourselves a nice cup of tea, sit down, breathe deeply and gingerly look at yet another line of ... whatever.)

Usch


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Suzan Hamer  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 21:14
English
+ ...
As one of those few native English speakers translating from Dutch into English, Oct 22, 2014

I could not disagree with you less.

(And I love http://www.makethatthecatwise.nl/ )

[Edited at 2014-10-22 09:45 GMT]

[Edited at 2014-10-22 16:09 GMT]


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Texte Style
Local time: 21:14
French to English
franglais Oct 22, 2014

I just love that all the other "languages" mix the English word "English" and the English word for the other langauge, but for the mixture of French and English, it's a mix of the two French words.

The French should feed proud!


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Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:14
Hebrew to English
Heblish Oct 22, 2014

The really unattractive love child of Hebrew and English is also the reason I avoid proofreading like the plague.

I hope I'm not breaking any laws by saying that


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:14
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
small question Oct 22, 2014

Suzan Hamer wrote:

As one of those few native English speakers translating into Dutch,


I could not disagree with you less.

(And I love http://www.makethatthecatwise.nl/ )

[Edited at 2014-10-22 09:45 GMT]


Hi Suzan,

I suspect you meant to write "As one of those few native English speakers translating into English", rather than "As one of those few native English speakers translating into Dutch"… right?

By the way, I like the "LANGUAGE MISC." section on your profile!

Michael


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Eric CM  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 21:14
English to Italian
+ ...
Hahaha! Oct 22, 2014

Michael Beijer wrote:

.......
[…]

Language transfer produces distinctive forms of learner English, depending on the speaker's first language. Some examples, labeled with a blend of the names of the two languages in question, are:

Chinglish (Chinese)
Czenglish (Czech)
Denglisch (German)
Dunglish (Dutch)
Engrish or "Japlish" (Japanese)
Finglish (Finnish)
Franglais (French)
Greeklish (Greek)
Hinglish (Hindi)
Konglish (Korean)
Manglish (Malaysian)
Poglish (Polish)
Porglish (Portuguese)
Runglish (Russian)
Serblish (Serbian)
Spanglish (Spanish)
Swenglish (Swedish)
Taglish (Tagalog)
Tanglish (Tamil)
Tinglish (Thai)
Turklish (Turkish)
Yinglish (Yiddish)

Similar interference effects, of course, also involve languages other than English, such as French and Spanish (Frespañol), Portuguese and Spanish (Portuñol), or Catalan and Spanish (Catanyol).

...


That's hilarious!
No Italian yet? I feel discriminated...


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Kirsten Bodart  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:14
Dutch to English
+ ...
Yes, great section that! Oct 22, 2014

I wonder what language actually uses the concept 'tomb' for 'drum' or washing machine. Interesting... We once had a packet of paella rice with such a label. It's weird how even cooking instructions can be b*ggered up so much that they are no longer comprehensible...

Anyway, I think you've got three main problems in this market:
1. Dutch is not a popular language to learn at all and there are not too many Dutch speakers who can marry English speakers to ensure a naturally bilingual community (as opposed to the Hindi community in the UK, for example)
2. English translators do not tend to have diplomas in translation (or it's a minority). Traditionally at least, agencies and people generally see a translator as they see an engineer: they studied for their job. This is changing, but it means that if you've got a conservative client/agency, the largest majority of English natives will be out of the running, in favour of those who can prove they can translate. And that's excluding the wide-spread belief that a translator should necessarily work both ways. Otherwise they're no good, surely? aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh
3. There is a mistaken belief that the Dutch/Flemish community is 'very good' at English. Sure, they can read books and talk quite fluently, but that doesn't mean they can really write a text absolutely devoid of grammar mistakes (even that). Never mind the wording.

Those are my 2 cents.


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missdutch  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 21:14
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
Actually, there is. Oct 22, 2014

We can proudly boast Itangliano, see http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/itangliano_(Enciclopedia_dell'Italiano)/

Eric CM wrote:

That's hilarious!
No Italian yet? I feel discriminated...


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Suzan Hamer  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 21:14
English
+ ...
OH MY GOODNESS! YES!! Oct 22, 2014

Michael Beijer wrote:

Suzan Hamer wrote:

As one of those few native English speakers translating into Dutch,


I could not disagree with you less.

(And I love http://www.makethatthecatwise.nl/ )

[Edited at 2014-10-22 09:45 GMT]


Hi Suzan,

I suspect you meant to write "As one of those few native English speakers translating into English", rather than "As one of those few native English speakers translating into Dutch"… right?

By the way, I like the "LANGUAGE MISC." section on your profile!

Michael


When will I EVER learn not to reply on the forums when I'm working against a deadline like a maniac and not taking the time to properly proof my own comments. Thank you VERY much. I wondered why there was so much sudden interest in my profile.


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:14
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
:) Oct 22, 2014

Suzan Hamer wrote:

Michael Beijer wrote:

Suzan Hamer wrote:

As one of those few native English speakers translating into Dutch,


I could not disagree with you less.

(And I love http://www.makethatthecatwise.nl/ )

[Edited at 2014-10-22 09:45 GMT]


Hi Suzan,

I suspect you meant to write "As one of those few native English speakers translating into English", rather than "As one of those few native English speakers translating into Dutch"… right?

By the way, I like the "LANGUAGE MISC." section on your profile!

Michael


When will I EVER learn not to reply on the forums when I'm working against a deadline like a maniac and not taking the time to properly proof my own comments. Thank you VERY much. I wondered why there was so much sudden interest in my profile.


Ha ha, don't worry. It happens to the best of us. I have a long and illustrious history as a professional mistake maker, partly due to the fact that I am always doing too many things at once (like now: supposed to be working!).

Michael

PS: The Department of Native English-speaking Dutch into English Translators is indeed severely understaffed!

[Edited at 2014-10-22 16:23 GMT]


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missdutch  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 21:14
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
I hear you! Oct 22, 2014

It's not unusual for me to translate English texts written by Dutch speakers; I can deal with them, most of the times, but sometimes they can be rather obscure and they make me think of Dr Evil in Goldmember: “I don't speak freaky deaky Dutch.”
Actually, I do, but still.


Kirsten Bodart wrote:

3. There is a mistaken belief that the Dutch/Flemish community is 'very good' at English. Sure, they can read books and talk quite fluently, but that doesn't mean they can really write a text absolutely devoid of grammar mistakes (even that). Never mind the wording.

Those are my 2 cents.


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