| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | Working under rush condtions Thread poster: R. Alex Jenkins
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Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 22:09
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | This doesn't seem to be a case of bad translation, but that of an agency wanting to avoid payment | Nov 24, 2014 |
I have been following this thread with interest. Richard doesn't come through as a translator who would submit a shoddy work even if it is done in rush. My experience is, if you are a reasonably proficient translator, your output, even when produced under tight and demanding conditions, is generally of good standard, and even if you try you can't produce an "atrocious" translation.
This seems to be corroborated by the examples Richard has cited from his translation and the examples ... See more I have been following this thread with interest. Richard doesn't come through as a translator who would submit a shoddy work even if it is done in rush. My experience is, if you are a reasonably proficient translator, your output, even when produced under tight and demanding conditions, is generally of good standard, and even if you try you can't produce an "atrocious" translation.
This seems to be corroborated by the examples Richard has cited from his translation and the examples of editing done by the reviewer.
Also, the agency involved knows and has worked with Richard for several years, which would have given it enough opportunities to judge Richard's translation abilities. The fact that it has continued to work with Richard, indicates that they don't have any reason to be dissatisfied with the quality of output that Richard produces.
I also don't buy the argument that patent translation is very different from any other type of technical translation, and a translator attempting it first time, will usually get it wrong. A professional and proficient translator generally has the ability to satisfactorily handle any translation, except perhaps the very esoteric and I don't count patents among them.
So the problem appears to be else where. It could be that the agency does not want to, or is not in a position to, pay for this job. Possibly the client cancelled the job or the the agency failed to deliver it on time for it to be useful for the client, and hence the client refused to pay for it.
And here comes the interesting part - instead of owing up to this, the agency seems to have found a scapegoat in "poor quality" and is using it to deny payment. May be it hired a reviewer just for the purpose of nitpicking on the translation and proving it to be "atrocious".
Any conscientious translator would react with anger and perplexity when such a charge is made against what according to him is a normal high quality output which has on previous several occasions passed muster with the same agency and would want to know what was new this time.
I am squarely on the side of Richard on this one. Even though I don't have all the facts, it seems to me, the agency is hiding something here, and is falsely accusing of poor quality in the translation, just to wriggle out of paying for the job.
Even if the agency has at its end botched this job and is not going to get any payment from its client, it is honour-bound to pay Richard what is due to him, for he has put in a honest day's work.
If I were in Richard's position I would firmly stick to my position that the translation submitted was of good quality and demand full payment as agreed.
[Edited at 2014-11-24 06:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 18:39
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
| Handle any translation? | Nov 24, 2014 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
I also don't buy the argument that patent translation is very different from any other type of technical translation, and a translator attempting it first time, will usually get it wrong. A professional and proficient translator generally has the ability to satisfactorily handle any translation, except perhaps the very esoteric and I don't count patents among them.
Pray, Balasubramaniam, what kind of translation do you consider "esoteric" (which I read as "peculiar"), if not patents? Are you saying this as an experienced patent translator?
| | | | R. Alex Jenkins
Brazil
Local time: 13:39
Member (2006)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
A few days ago, after careful consideration, I decided to email the agency stating that I would invoice them as normal at the end of the month, giving them a suitable opportunity to pay the invoice, and then take it from there. The agency responded very politely along the lines of: you're a freelancer and entitled to invoice us, so of course we will pay it. We're sorry that you're taking the matter in this way, and maybe after a while you will be able to view the situation more calmly and from a... See more A few days ago, after careful consideration, I decided to email the agency stating that I would invoice them as normal at the end of the month, giving them a suitable opportunity to pay the invoice, and then take it from there. The agency responded very politely along the lines of: you're a freelancer and entitled to invoice us, so of course we will pay it. We're sorry that you're taking the matter in this way, and maybe after a while you will be able to view the situation more calmly and from another perspective.
The rest of it is speculation, from all of you.
Thank you very much to all of you who have defended me. It's endearing. I find your encouragement remarkable considering that I know none of you personally, which emphasises what wonderful trusting personalities you have - a reflection on you as individuals, and nothing to do with the translation itself or my relationship with the agency, which in reality you know next to nothing about.
On a final note; I didn't find the translation particularly difficult, just very wordy, consisting of sentences tens of lines long and, in comparison to some contracts I have been involved in, a breeze. That's what shocked me.
Have a great week. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 17:39
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Happy for you, Richard | Nov 24, 2014 |
R-i-c-h-a-r-d wrote:
The agency responded very politely along the lines of: you're a freelancer and entitled to invoice us, so of course we will pay it. We're sorry that you're taking the matter in this way, and maybe after a while you will be able to view the situation more calmly and from another perspective.
So it sounds as though they're acting as they should now, and would be happy to work with you again if you're happy to do so. It's nice to know that you can at least end the relationship in a polite way.
Thank you very much to all of you who have defended me. It's endearing. I find your encouragement remarkable considering that I know none of you personally, which emphasises what wonderful trusting personalities you have - a reflection on you as individuals, and nothing to do with the translation itself or my relationship with the agency, which in reality you know next to nothing about.
This is what worries me about many of the responses here. I really don't see "wonderful trusting personalities" as good for business prospects. I can't unequivocally trust people I don't know, in situations I have very little knowledge of and where I only have one viewpoint. It just doesn't make any sense to. But maybe I'm just a grumpy old woman . I hasten to say I don't mistrust you either, Richard, I just prefer to reserve judgement until I know you better . But I'm pleased this has had a happy ending.
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Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 18:39
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Dear Richard,
It was in now way my intention to put you down. I meant what I said in my initial sentence:
Erik Freitag wrote:
Dear Richard,
I'm sorry to hear what has happened to you. I agree with the general opinion here: Your client needs to substantiate their complaints.
With the but that followed, I was indeed trying to be supportive by trying to point out to you what might be part of the issue.
R-i-c-h-a-r-d wrote:
On a final note; I didn't find the translation particularly difficult, just very wordy, consisting of sentences tens of lines long […] That's what shocked me.
That's a nice example of what I was trying to explain in one of my earlier posts: This is a standard feature of patents, and even a legal requirement, at least for US patents. Section 608.01(m) of the United States Patent and Trademark Office's MEP (Manual of Patent Examining Procedure) says:
"Each claim begins with a capital letter and ends with a period. Periods may not be used elsewhere in the claims except for abbreviations."
This is only one of a whole lot of special issues of patent translation. Chances are that you missed most of them (as anybody with common sense, but without knowledge about patent law would do).
You should take this as constructive criticism. Consider the possibility that your translation indeed may have defects that you're unable to recognize as such, as they wouldn't be wrong within the context of general translation.
Best regards,
Erik
[Bearbeitet am 2014-11-24 14:18 GMT]
| | | | | Much ado about nothing | Nov 24, 2014 |
Much ado about nothing then...  Looks like both parties are just unable to handle the vicissitudes of business life... There are many cases of this on ProZ fora, i.e. translators who get worked up/kick a fuss/"tell their life story" at the slightest contradiction, but I didn't suspect it would be the same here - I thought you were more mature than others who usually post that kind of stories, and it really sounded as though the agen... See more Much ado about nothing then... Looks like both parties are just unable to handle the vicissitudes of business life... There are many cases of this on ProZ fora, i.e. translators who get worked up/kick a fuss/"tell their life story" at the slightest contradiction, but I didn't suspect it would be the same here - I thought you were more mature than others who usually post that kind of stories, and it really sounded as though the agency was adamant on a 100% discount... which obviously was not the case, as now we learn you're no longer a nobody for them, but a good translator they are very satisfied with...!
There was indeed a good part of speculation in answers given, but eventually it looks like those who bet on you won now the agency came to their senses... (and the agency paying takes nothing away from their amateurism in dealing with the case and lack of respect for a long-time devoted collaborator...) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Facts are facts | Nov 24, 2014 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: This is what worries me about many of the responses here. I really don't see "wonderful trusting personalities" as good for business prospects. I can't unequivocally trust people I don't know, in situations I have very little knowledge of and where I only have one viewpoint. It just doesn't make any sense to. But maybe I'm just a grumpy old woman .
Richard didn't only relate his side of the story, he stated facts!
Saying that an agency which unilaterally decides not to pay a translator while providing no evidence of quality issues is a rogue agency, is as solid logically as saying that clients pay for results and not means, as you said earlier in this thread.
They didn't follow through with what they said, but the mere threat is a mark of disrespect.
| | | | Natasha Ziada (X)
Australia
Local time: 02:39
English to Dutch
+ ...
Richard didn't only relate his side of the story, he stated facts!
Facts? Someone venting their frustration and paraphrasing or quoting correspondence - however rightfully so and however trustworthy they might be - is hardly 'facts'. It's, again, the virtual equivalence of a watercooler, where emotions tend to run high and the story might be brought with some bias.
Unless you'd have read the actual source text, translation and correspondence there is no such thing as 'facts'. Still only one side of the story.
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| congratulations! | Nov 25, 2014 |
Congratulations, Richard! I knew you'd eventually be vindicated, and I'm glad it didn't take long. You even had the US Patent and Trademark Office on your side as far as the ridiculous "corrections" made by the agency's incompetent reviser -- a pretty strong ally! It sounds like the bully PM was told to back off when the agency realized they might lose a quality translator.
It's a fitting ending to the story -- bravo!
Catherine
| | | | R. Alex Jenkins
Brazil
Local time: 13:39
Member (2006)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Great to get paid, but I knew that wasn't the real issue... | Nov 26, 2014 |
I've worked for this agency on and off for years and they're an honest payer. I had a PO in hand so there was no real need for this post. Sorry for any perceived over-reaction. However, I wanted to express my shock at the agency's reaction to the the work, telling me that it was awful and asking me to withhold my invoice.
I've been using Kudoz and all sorts of other translation aids and sites over the years, and looking at the quality of the questions/answers and sample translations... See more I've worked for this agency on and off for years and they're an honest payer. I had a PO in hand so there was no real need for this post. Sorry for any perceived over-reaction. However, I wanted to express my shock at the agency's reaction to the the work, telling me that it was awful and asking me to withhold my invoice.
I've been using Kudoz and all sorts of other translation aids and sites over the years, and looking at the quality of the questions/answers and sample translations often submitted, know very well where I stand as a translator. I have come a long way and, although I'm not the best, have taken a mighty step.
Maybe criticism is nothing more than water off a duck's back to many people, but I was really offended. OK, perhaps I should grow up and accept bad humoured, time-pressured reviewers with heavy-handed approaches and PMs willing to believe everything they have to say as hazards of the job, but I find it difficult to enter into a tit-for-tat, back-stabbing environment. I recently got a negative review from another agency, so crucify me now if you will, but I still receive work offers from this agency and, funnily enough, wasn't that offended by the criticism. I also do revision work for this agency which involves the filling out of an on-line evaluation form upon submission of the work. Even though I was very unhappy at the quality of the translation work I reviewed, I did not feel comfortable giving the lowest marks even though that is what the work deserved. I know I would personally never submit work of such poor quality and yet, still did not give out the lowest marks. I wrote to the PM and explained that I was not satisfied, but that the translation was OK and that I couldn't condemn it fully. That's just my way, I guess.
Put it this way. If we don't show solidarity among ourselves then we are nothing more than mice amongst men. An agency we work for could rear its head at any moment, based on the opinion of another freelancer. Us in our offices, alone, against the agencies, in a corporate world where the buck stops with us. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Oh, translation companies always have pay you for work--if the work was completed | Nov 30, 2014 |
If they have a problem, they can take you to court, and then the judge will decide--in 99% of the cases in the contractor's favor (he may just ask the contractor--translator or a different type of contractor, to fix what was not done the way someone expected it to be). They just don't know the law. They may not assign any jobs to you in the future, but they have to pay. They cannot change the conditions once they have been accepted by the translator.
You may have to fix the text,... See more If they have a problem, they can take you to court, and then the judge will decide--in 99% of the cases in the contractor's favor (he may just ask the contractor--translator or a different type of contractor, to fix what was not done the way someone expected it to be). They just don't know the law. They may not assign any jobs to you in the future, but they have to pay. They cannot change the conditions once they have been accepted by the translator.
You may have to fix the text, but they always have to pay you.
Just don't let companies play any games with you like that. I think some companies may be doing it on purpose.
Urgent? They would have to prove why something was so urgent--was anybody to die if the transltion was not completed within a certain period of time, or was it that they just wanted to make more money.
[Edited at 2014-11-30 08:46 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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