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How does an agency deal with translators that wont deliver
Thread poster: Rahulravindran
Rahulravindran  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 13:42
Tamil to English
+ ...
Jan 13

I have had this nagging issue, not just with Proz but also other forums which seem lopsided in some of their rules.

When linguists submit machine translated work, or disappear before deadline and submit the work at their own will and pleasure after days, they demand to be paid. If we refuse, as an agency, the post these reports for Non payment on Proz and the outsourcer gets banned.

As much as an outsourcer gets negative marks for non payment, how does one ban a linguist from these forums and from swindling companies? Recently a huge project in Indian languages had a couple of translators submitted machine translated work. Not only was it rejected in internal QC but also by the client.

What should we do in such circumstances, when Proz doesnt seem to heed this side of the story at all?


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Lianne van de Ven  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:12
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
Profile feedback Jan 13

As far as proz.com is concerned, if translators have a proz.com profile, you can leave feedback for that profile just the same way as translators can leave feedback for agencies. In fact, agency feedback gets vetted, and I am not even sure that's the case for translator feedback.

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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 10:12
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Yes Jan 13

Rahulravindran wrote:
If we refuse, as an agency, they post these reports for non-payment on ProZ.com and the outsourcer gets banned.


Yes, I believe it would be only fair if ProZ.com would state quite clearly on a ban notification *why* the agency was banned from posting jobs.

On the other hand, when an agency is banned from posting on ProZ.com, it is usually after several translators report very negative feedback, so normally you should be able see in an agency's Blue Board record who the translators were. Also, agencies have the opportunity to reply to negative reviews, so if a translator delivered an unedited machine translation, then the agency should say so on his Blue Board record for everyone to see.

This does not apply to your agency, though. Your agency is not banned from posting jobs at ProZ.com, and you have only three reviews -- all 5's.

...when ProZ.com doesn't seem to heed this side of the story at all?


What do you mean?


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 10:12
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Lianne Jan 13

Lianne van de Ven wrote:
If translators have a ProZ.com profile, you can leave feedback for that profile just the same way as translators can leave feedback for agencies.


That is not true, though. You can't give negative feedback on a translator. And you can't give negative feedback to a translator on the Blue Board unless that translator is also an outsourcer. And even if he is an outsourcer, your Blue Board feedback may only relate to work that you did for him (not the other way round).

cant give negative feedback


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Lianne van de Ven  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:12
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
Optional check box? Jan 13

Samuel Murray wrote:

Lianne van de Ven wrote:
If translators have a ProZ.com profile, you can leave feedback for that profile just the same way as translators can leave feedback for agencies.


That is not true, though. You can't give negative feedback on a translator. And you can't give negative feedback to a translator on the Blue Board unless that translator is also an outsourcer. And even if he is an outsourcer, your Blue Board feedback may only relate to work that you did for him (not the other way round).


Can you indeed not leave that WWA check box unchecked and write your negative experience in the text box?
Translators (if they have a proz.com profile) can also be reported to the staff. I have reported not only agencies but what appeared to be rather involved scam activities by several profiles.

If the type of people OP talks about are really scammers, they can be reported here: http://www.translator-scammers.com/translator-scammers-directory.htm


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 10:12
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Lianne Jan 13

Lianne van de Ven wrote:
Can you indeed not leave that WWA check box unchecked and write your negative experience in the text box?


http://www.proz.com/faq/2518#2518
It is not possible to make "no" and "maybe" entries in response to the question, "Would you work again with this person?".



[Edited at 2017-01-13 16:38 GMT]


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Rahulravindran  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 13:42
Tamil to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
@Lianne Jan 13

It is not possible since Proz just told me they want to prevent "Abuse" of translators. But what about us?

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Chinmayi Sripada
Local time: 13:42
English to German
+ ...
@Rahul Ravindran @Lianne Jan 13

My company was the official interpretation service for Hillary Clinton's India (Chennai) visit when she was Secretary of State.

However, 3 Malayalam linguists, did not deliver on time, did not deliver in the formats requested after accepting the work. I have routinely had linguists send in machine translations and I have refused to pay, which I believe is only right, I have always been a speedy paymaster. They got together and posted a negative review though I had to get the file translated in the way and format I wanted through someone else. I paid that gentleman.

These three WWAs from questionable linguists whose work was rejected and I showed Proz Emails that the work was unacceptable. Proz maintains its ban on my usage though I was a full member.

Proz is unfair in their dealings with agencies and grievance redressal and I am an example of it. Though I am an Indian, the problem of submitting machine translation, not submitting on time, having "an accident", computer crashing or a relative dying happens just before a deadline is prevalent most with Indians. I had thankfully built up a base of linguists I have worked with through the years and thus my agency still exists in India.


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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:12
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
I agree, but many don't Jan 13

Rahulravindran wrote:
It is not possible since Proz just told me they want to prevent "Abuse" of translators. But what about us?

We should have equal feedback possibilities for freelancers and outsourcers. After all, some outsourcers are small concerns, and some are even freelancers. Perhaps we shouldn't be allowed to post negative feedback against them in case their feelings get hurt. Of course you need to minmise chances of abuse, but that applies to just about everything. A freelancer who simply doesn't carry out their side of the contract should be given negative feedback. But if they're in hospital and took pains to inform the outsourcer, they shouldn't.


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Lianne van de Ven  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:12
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
We all deal with scammers Jan 13

Rahulravindran wrote:

It is not possible since Proz just told me they want to prevent "Abuse" of translators. But what about us?


I want to dispute your basic assumption that you get banned from proz.com because one translator makes a non-payment claim against you. It raises a flag (or bans someone) if there are multiple cases of negative feedback.
Also: does the translator you are referring to have a profile (reputation) on proz.com (that you checked in advance), or are you making a general statement about how proz.com works or where you can complain about translators?

I believe that proz.com is (or was) a platform for translators in the first place. The Blueboard for translators to check agencies is very helpful, but it is not a foolproof system. In fact, I question the reliability of the 5-star rating system, and maybe it might just as well be a WWA system (yes or no). Trustworthy translators (the ones that are serious in this business, not scammers) generally don't leave negative feedback for agencies unless they have pretty much decided that they don't want to work with them anymore. A less than perfect rating would negatively affect their working relationship with them. I certainly have my share of dubious experiences with even the highest rated agencies without ever leaving negative fb.

This is less of an issue for agencies because, if all is well, there will be plenty of other translators willing to work with them. Agencies are the buyers, and this is a buyer's market i.e. where buyers have an advantage over sellers.

Agencies also have the option to check translator profiles, and make sure they work with translators who have sufficient positive feedback. As a translator, I frequently have to submit (3rd party) references to agencies or prove my skills by providing a test translation. These are all tools to gather information that translators would not have if there was no such thing as a blueboard.

Again: I would refer you to the translation scammers list (that I mentioned earlier) if you are convinced that you are dealing with scammers.


[Edited at 2017-01-14 01:16 GMT]


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Rahulravindran  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 13:42
Tamil to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
@Lianne Jan 13

Hi
This is not an assumption. We do get hoodwinked here by linguists with fake references can be faked in my country. It is sad. There is no credible reference system like one finds in the EU or the US.

And yes with a recent large project I have had a team of linguists threatening to "ban" me here as one of them submitted machine translated work. We subtitled films for an entity very popular on the web. We also got a letter from the end client to say the work was unusable.

Three or four Non payment reports is enough to get a ban, I hear.


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Texte Style
Local time: 10:12
French to English
cross them off and move on Jan 13

I used to work for a top-notch agency. On the rare occasion that a translator didn't hand in work on time, we simply stopped working with that translator. We paid handsomely and had a very reliable set of translators on top of their game, so that didn't happen very often.

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Lianne van de Ven  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:12
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
Be creative Jan 13

Samuel Murray wrote:

Lianne van de Ven wrote:
Can you indeed not leave that WWA check box unchecked and write your negative experience in the text box?


http://www.proz.com/faq/2518#2518
It is not possible to make "no" and "maybe" entries in response to the question, "Would you work again with this person?".


Maybe not "maybe" or "no" but again, do you have to check that checkbox? And even if you have to, you can still write in that box whatever you want?

[Edited at 2017-01-14 01:18 GMT]


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:12
SITE FOUNDER
We have a policy that we adhere to Jan 13

Chinmayi Sripada wrote:

My company was the official interpretation service for Hillary Clinton's India (Chennai) visit when she was Secretary of State.

However, 3 Malayalam linguists, did not deliver on time, did not deliver in the formats requested after accepting the work. I have routinely had linguists send in machine translations and I have refused to pay, which I believe is only right, I have always been a speedy paymaster. They got together and posted a negative review though I had to get the file translated in the way and format I wanted through someone else. I paid that gentleman.

These three WWAs from questionable linguists whose work was rejected and I showed Proz Emails that the work was unacceptable. Proz maintains its ban on my usage though I was a full member.

Hi Chinmayi. When I saw this post, I investigated. I have no reason to doubt that you are an honest person. Nevertheless you neglect to tell the whole story here, which can be misleading to others, so I feel the need to comment.

I can see from the support thread that you know our policies for dealing with Blue Board entries, and you also know that the critical factor in your case was the fact that you were not able to provide documentation showing that you had expressed a quality complaint to two of the translators. (Though you did show that the client complained.) This is why the non-payment entries remained in place, and as a consequence, your ability to post jobs was suspended.

I am not coming down on one side or the other, of course, but you can understand that we have to have a policy and we have to enforce it uniformly.

I believe the policy we have has worked very well over the years. That said, we are always open to suggestions on improving our services and policies. Our interest, naturally, is to be fair to both sides. (Anything else would not serve either side well.)


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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:12
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Could they be justified in complaining? Jan 14

Rahulravindran wrote:
And yes with a recent large project I have had a team of linguists threatening to "ban" me here as one of them submitted machine translated work. We subtitled films for an entity very popular on the web. We also got a letter from the end client to say the work was unusable.

Three or four Non payment reports is enough to get a ban, I hear.

Are you saying that one team member submitted unusable work, while the others submitted better work? If that is indeed the case then they are all owed their full rate, except that one unprofessional one. It's unfortunate for you that your client refused to pay for anything at all, but that's a risk with coordinating large projects. The coordination work should identify and deal with any inconsistencies before the job is delivered. You can't possibly refuse to pay any of the translators who did an adequate job. I think they would be totally justified in acting against you in those circumstances.


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