| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17] > | The global TM I want... Thread poster: Felipe Gútiez Velasco
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| Filtertechnology is important | Aug 30, 2008 |
dgmaga wrote: Hi, I fully agree with Samual that legal issues should not prevent us from "dreaming" about the perfect global TM.  Let's consider, for instance, the European Commission's translation memories, which are publicly available ( http://langtech.jrc.it/DGT-TM.html) How would you like to use them? Would you like to be able to filter the contents by legal act, by subject area, by date? Daniel
Filter technology, statistically-guided algorythms, ...
| | | | | Hi, Luis, we need a good lawyer too :-) | Aug 30, 2008 |
Luis Arri Cibils wrote: dgmaga wrote: Hi, I fully agree with Samual that legal issues should not prevent us from "dreaming" about the perfect global TM. Let's consider, for instance, the European Commission's translation memories, which are publicly available ( http://langtech.jrc.it/DGT-TM.html) Daniel Dear Daniel, I am somehow concerned with your first sentence I quoted above. With only a slight twisting of words, something that should be easy to do by us translators, I could read it as: Let’s not worry about legalities. At this time, just let’s dream about the perfect crime. Yet, as I stated in my message responding to Samuel Murray’s question, there is nothing illegal dreaming about a global TM that is limited to what you suggested in your second sentence I quoted above: plubicly available translation memories, as long as they are not protected by copyright. There are also many other files that can be shared, as I stated in my response to Samuel, although, for the reasons I stated, I will not be able to participate in the project to any large extent. I would like, however, to ask you a question. Felipe disappeared today from the radar; you, who live not too far from Felipe's declared homeplace, suddenly appear; both of you have complementary skills for a project like this, developing of a macro TM, being one a translator, the other a computer guy; Felipe already has asked for opinions from “Silicon Valley investors”. May I ask whether you have a joint project to do such a development? First, you must forgive me for being untrustful. It might be due to my legal training. Surely, at this time, the best I can offer is to somehow share Ronnie Reagan’s statement: “Trust but verify.” And there is nothing wrong if you have such a project. We might, or might not, be interested. But, at least I, we would like to know who are the people postulating some course of action, particularly when we are told to forget about legalities. Saludos, Luis
I would be delighted to get a Silicon Valley investor, tha´s right, but nothing at all against a Chinese, Indian or Brazilian investor.
I have not just ideas on memory sharing but other ideas as well.
Is Daniel a very good informatician? Good for him, I had no idea.
If the project works we will need the best lawyer we can find. Are you interested?
| | | | | So, one more "basically" for, thanks. | Aug 30, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
So instead of saying "clients will never consent, therefore it is a waste of time to discuss the idea", let's rather say "some clients may give consent, so let's discuss the idea". Then this thread will be useful. Let's more forward. Once a potential problem is identified (eg some clients may not like it), let's not regard it as an insurmountable problem that should let the entire venture grind to a halt.
This is exactly how I feel. Actually, applying basic project management practices to this thread could help us all move forward. Let's define our project: an online mega TM open to any and all users (perhaps for a fee). Then, let's look at what resources we would need to accomplish the project: we need TMs that are legal to share (that is, either there is no copyright or the translator providing the TM has obtained permission from the client to share the TM). See? It's not hard. Now, let's see how we can get there.
| | | | | This is basically unfair and you know it Kevin | Aug 30, 2008 |
Kevin Lossner wrote: dgmaga wrote: Let's consider, for instance, the European Commission's translation memories, which are publicly available ( http://langtech.jrc.it/DGT-TM.html) How would you like to use them? Want an honest answer? Given the usual quality of EU English, using them as toilet paper comes to mind. Have to print them out first though, and with 350,000 segments in my language pair that'll take a lot of paper.
The EU translations are not that bad. I think they are in most cases nice, at least for the languages I can read.
On the other hand, I think you used US English, isn´t? In the EU is used the UK English. Sensible topic, my god!
[Editado a las 2008-08-30 11:52]
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| Win-win, that is the point | Aug 30, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
I would agree with you, if it were highly unlikely that any client would give permission. I believe, however, that most clients would not object, if they can be assured that their existing rights will not be violated.
Like in most cases, you have to make an effort to reach a win-win situation where both parts win. The problem is that some people (very few) don´t like win-win situations and always try to be the winners, no matter how. But at last they get apart. This is a not-written business law.
I prophesy that Microsoft will dissappear in less than 10 years...
Back to sharing memories. You have to give something to your clients. What? I don´t know. I will think about it. Any suggestions?
Hi, folks, I think translators from ProZ are among the most intelligents and open minds in the world. We could make great things together.....
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Felipe Gútiez wrote:
The EU translations are not that bad. I think they are in most cases nice, at least for the languages I can read.
You really think so? Our standards of English are not the same. Find me some literate native English speakers that think the EU English content is good.
| | | | | Logoport really doesn´t work? | Aug 30, 2008 |
""Lionbridge Aug 29
Lionbridge uses this. I used it on and off for a year or so and found it to be even worse than Trados. It will only work in certain versions of Word, there was a constant nagging about macros, it messed up the toolbars in Word and you never get to keep any TM's as a reference for future jobs (you never even get to check that the word count is correct, so you may end up losing money). Logoport is also terribly slow and I found that I spent twice as long on a jo... See more ""Lionbridge Aug 29
Lionbridge uses this. I used it on and off for a year or so and found it to be even worse than Trados. It will only work in certain versions of Word, there was a constant nagging about macros, it messed up the toolbars in Word and you never get to keep any TM's as a reference for future jobs (you never even get to check that the word count is correct, so you may end up losing money). Logoport is also terribly slow and I found that I spent twice as long on a job simply because I had to wait for the server to respond.
I try my best to avoid Logoport at all times.""" Quotation thread Logoport in ProZ
Well, not very comforting, isn´t? Why do you think it does not work so well?
Any good experience with Logoport?
Will there be a new version soon?
Any of the 24.000 translators from Lionbridge out there?
What I know is that Logoport was a Berlin-based company that was adquired by Lionbridge a couple of years ago and now is a part of Lionbridge. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 06:45
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Do you also require this of your clients? | Aug 30, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
Personally before I bought/accessed such a memory, I'd want a signed, printed statement declaring that the owners of the text were asked and consent to have their materiales shared/sold this way.
Do you also require that your clients provide a signed, printed statement to certify that they have permission from the copyright holder of the source text to have it translated? I doubt it. Nor do you require the same from any publisher whom you buy a resource from. So why would you require it from a TM reseller system?
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 06:45
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| TMMarketplace uses "fair use in US" principle | Aug 30, 2008 |
If you read the Align FAQ from TMMarketplace, you'll see how they do it. They use the "fair use in the United States" principle.
It seems to me that they align translations without getting prior permission from the copyright holders, and then remove/alter anything that would cause their use of the material to cease being fair use. This is an easy way of doing it, but personally I think a global TM system should not be based on exceptions to copyright principles but on strict adherence to copyright principles.
The problems with TMMarketplace's method are that (a) certain useful content is removed from the TUs, eg timestamps and user IDs (this is to prevent anyone from being able to recreate the originals); (b) it only works in the United States (what is fair use in the US may not be fair use or fair usage in another country); and (c) none of the TUs contain more than 10 words (this is to lend strength to the "fair use" argument).
In a global TM to my liking, I would like to see more than that. But that means that clients or copyright holders would have to give specific permission (they need to grant a Creative Commons type of licence) to the global TM (or to individual contributors to it). So, initially the TM will be rather empty, as it will take time for clients to get used to the idea of relicensing their content.
I think one can also offer clients different levels of "anonimity". For example, the most open level would be one in which the name of the client is made known in the TU itself. A higher level might be where the date of the TU is included but not the time. An even higher level might be where no formatting is preserved and the TU contains only the source text and translation. A different method of maintaining confidentiality might be an embargo on the content (e.g. it may only be added to the TM after X number of months, or it may only be added to the TM once it can be found on the web in a Google search).
I believe clients should have peace of mind that translators have the utmost respect for their confidentiality, but on the other hand I feel that translators should insist on their own terms. One such term is that the client seriously consider relicensing his content. As translators we should say to our clients, "Here are my terms of service. If you issue a purchase order to me, I assume that you accept my terms." After all, this is how many clients operate -- they assume you accept their terms if you accept a job from them, even if nothing was signed. But I believe honesty is important.
==
My apologies... upon rereading the thread I discovered that Felipe had misquoted Maria, and I had included his misquote in my post. I corrected it now -- Felipe himself brought up the issue of TMMarketplace, not Maria.
[Edited at 2008-08-30 15:23]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 06:45
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| The answer is right there, in the quote | Aug 30, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Why do you think [Logoport] does not work so well?
The answer is in the quote you quoted. Allow me to point it out for you:
It will only work in certain versions of Word, there was a constant nagging about macros, it messed up the toolbars in Word and you never get to keep any TM's as a reference for future jobs (you never even get to check that the word count is correct, so you may end up losing money).
In other words, Logoport is not simply a global TM (I mean, merely a big file) but a TM system that requires the user to install certain software and requires the user to use the TM system while he is connected to the internet.
Logoport is also terribly slow and I found that I spent twice as long on a job simply because I had to wait for the server to respond.
In other words, each segment is looked up in real time, and there is no pre-matching that would overcome the problem of a slow internet connection.
So, the lessons learnt are:
* Do not require translators to download and install a certain program in order to use the TM.
* Do not limit translators to a certain word processor or to certain software that has to be installed on the local computer first.
* Do... basically what I had proposed in my previous mails. Create a system whereby translators download a TM and use it in whatever way they like (within limits of the licence, of course), and do not require feedback from the translators.
| | | | | Thanks for your contributions | Aug 30, 2008 |
I think we are improving more and more.
Any suggestions about why is Logoport so bad and what could do a TM to improve it?
Any suggestions about how could translators benefit from such a TM?
New ideas?
Speak out!
Take your place!
TRANSLATORS TO THE POWER!!!
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 06:45
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| What more would you like to know? | Aug 30, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Any suggestions about why is Logoport so bad and what could do a TM to improve it?
What kinds of suggestions are you looking for, Felipe? We keep answering, and you keep repeating the same questions. Perhaps our answers do not satisfy you? Then please tell us why, and tell us what kind of information it is that you're looking for.
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| This was not for you, thank you Murray | Aug 30, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Any suggestions about why is Logoport so bad and what could do a TM to improve it? What kinds of suggestions are you looking for, Felipe? We keep answering, and you keep repeating the same questions. Perhaps our answers do not satisfy you? Then please tell us why, and tell us what kind of information it is that you're looking for.
It is just to stimulate the general brainstorming.
I am sure there are pieces of gold in translators knowledge out there.
We are in a new era, the era of collaboration, not the era of hidding knowledge.
This is Internet, this is planet Earth, XXI century and counting...
By the way, what do you think about the tool from Google (translate)?
You go to google, more, even more, translate.
Then you have 4 options Text and Web, Translated Search, Dictionary, Tools
| | | | | It is a team work | Aug 30, 2008 |
Kevin Lossner wrote: Felipe Gútiez wrote:
The EU translations are not that bad. I think they are in most cases nice, at least for the languages I can read. You really think so? Our standards of English are not the same. Find me some literate native English speakers that think the EU English content is good.
May be the EU is not perfect. I can give you lots of information about that.
But in any case, is working, and it is an example of what to do/or better avoid for the rest of the world. Many things need improving, but, still, is working.
In the translation in the EU institutions there are many factors which influence the results but the most important one would be homogeneity. If something was published once in a way, you have to keep it that way, no matter if there is a better alternative. You have to be a very good team player to be able to give up a good proposal and take the "ordinary" one. That is why in some cases the qualitiy is not top, but, in general, quality is very good, at least for the most important documents.
On the other hand you have in most cases generalist translators working, not specializing, and they have to do their best with specialised topics. Any suggestion to improve that? May be outsourcing? Could be an idea.
Currently outsourcing is improving its size and will amount to 40% of the total translations in the next time.
| | | | | Not even in the UK | Aug 30, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
On the other hand, I think you used US English, isn´t? In the EU is used the UK English.
No, the EU TM does not even use proper UK English. There are plenty of people running around Europe claiming to use British English who are actually using some odd pidgin. Assuming that you think you are using UK English, the quote is a good example. It's fine for getting a point across in an informal setting like this, but that sort of English is utterly unacceptable for professional publications. We deal with EU "English" regularly for banking documents and a host of other things, and it is a horrible, bastard compromise in most cases. Often it reads like it was translated from Latvian into English by a native speaker of French.
My partner used to teach at Berlitz a few decades ago, and she told me a funny story about the nonsense German students tried to pull on their British and American teachers. The same thing used to go on at the Dolmetscherinstitut (interpreter's institute) she attended in Saarbrücken. When a student was caught making a mistake, he or she would often claim that it was actually "correct" in the other language variant. The teachers often met on breaks and compared notes, and these claims of correctness were never true. I once pointed out to an ex-colleague that his intended company name "develope" was a misspelling, and he informed me very snootily that that was proper US English, but that as an ignorant Brit I wouldn't know that. I was far too amused by this one to show him my US passport, and the quality of his programming was about on par with his spelling, so I figured that wisdom would bring its own rewards in that case.
Addendum:
As for your contentions that the quality of the English in the EU is generally good, you are quite mistaken, but I'll drop the subject. I have no interest in swimming in a pool of mediocrity, which is what that material represents. If I have to quote a directive, of course I will use the actual official wording no matter how awful. But anyone who want to use material like that as a standard for writing is headed in the wrong direction.
[Edited at 2008-08-30 14:49]
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