Any experience with DocZone?
Thread poster: Csaba Ban

Csaba Ban  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 14:05
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Oct 13, 2009

Hi folks.

Anyone has any experience with DocZone?

A long standing client of mine now insists on using this web-based CAT tool for a fairly large project (40k words).

For several years, all projects were traditional ttx files that I translated with Deja Vu X. Everyone was happy. I worked very efficiently, the client received what they wanted.

Now, for some reason, they insist on using DocZone.com for this particular project.

Apparently there's no way to export source files, process them offline and send them back the completed files. Actually, there are no files per se, everything is done online.

After DVX, I find this application like a time travel back to stone age, and it offers less functionality than even Trados.

Concordance hardly works, fuzzy matches are not always offered. Quite often a sentence looks familiar, but no fuzzy or full match is offered. I copy and paste this sentence into DVX, and, surprise, surprise I get a full match from a previous project I did for the same client a year ago.

I asked if translations entered into this project will be available in a traditional TM for future projects to be done in DVX (or Trados for other translators). The answer was NO!

The user interface is not very friendly either.

All the convenient functions that I got used to in DVX are non-existent here.

All in all, my productivity is some 40% lower than in DVX.

I've been sending several emails about my concerns to the client, but all they say is that the end client insists on using this tool for this job.

Anyone has experience using DocZone? Anyone has any experience in convincing a client to use a different CAT tool?

thanks for your ideas,
Csaba


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Jabberwock  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 14:05
Member (2004)
English to Polish
Renegotiate? Oct 13, 2009

I have no experience with DocZone, sorry if I what I write is less on topic as expected...

From you write, I would say you have the full right to renegotiate the rates. After all, your initial rate calculations were made with several assumptions in mind, one of them being the tools you use for the work. I am not saying they will agree to a 40% raise, but maybe just the perspective of the change will make them come to their senses.

Another issue: I am not saying you are in danger with this particular client, but in the setup you describe (no TM, no export files) you are practically at the client's mercy as far as the wordcount is concerned...


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Rodolfo Raya  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:05
English to Spanish
Export as XLIFF? Oct 13, 2009

Hi,

DocZone advertises support for XLIFF files. Check if it lets you download translation material in XLIFF format. If that's the case, you can translate locally with any tool and then upload the translated XLIFF.

Regards,
Rodolfo


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:05
French to Polish
+ ...
T-Window for Clipboard Oct 13, 2009

Csaba Ban wrote:


Concordance hardly works, fuzzy matches are not always offered. Quite often a sentence looks familiar, but no fuzzy or full match is offered. I copy and paste this sentence into DVX, and, surprise, surprise I get a full match from a previous project I did for the same client a year ago.[/quote]
As you have Trados, you can use T-Window for Clipboard if no export is available.

I asked if translations entered into this project will be available in a traditional TM for future projects to be done in DVX (or Trados for other translators). The answer was NO!

With T-Window you'll be able to store your translations in your TM.

Nevertheless, it's a pain in the neck, so why I refuse almost all jobs to be done in Web based tools, the productivity loss may be even greater than 40%...

Cheers
GG


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 14:05
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Contact DocZone itself? Oct 13, 2009

Csaba Ban wrote:
Anyone has any experience with DocZone? ... A long standing client of mine now insists on using this web-based CAT tool for a fairly large project (40k words).


I would also try to contact DocZone's people directly (although you're not allowed to mention to them who your client is). It is possible that the client *thinks* that there is no such feature when in fact there is. It may be that the feature is hidden (to prevent helpdesk calls from clueless newbies who break their files).

I don't know DVX very well -- can you alter the source text in DVX itself or must you re-import the source text when you've made changes to the source text? And if the latter, how long does it take for DVX to import a new or altered source text file that is one sentence long -- a fraction of a second or several seconds? I'm asking because you might want to consider copying each sentence from DocZone into DVX, translating it, and then pasting the translation back into DocZone (don't laugh -- you might be able to automate it).


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:05
French to Polish
+ ...
AutoHotkey Oct 13, 2009

Samuel Murray wrote:


I don't know DVX very well -- can you alter the source text in DVX itself [/quote]
Yes.

m asking because you might want to consider copying each sentence from DocZone into DVX, translating it, and then pasting the translation back into DocZone (don't laugh -- you might be able to automate it). [/quote]
An AutoHotkey script should do the job.
AFAIR you created a similar script for Idiom

Cheers
GG


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DocZone Oct 13, 2009

Hi Csaba,

Thank you for your post. I am the technical architect of the translation part of DocZone. DocZone is a complete web based SaaS solution for XML publishing. As such it offers a comprehensive browser based translator workbench that covers all aspects of the localization process including terminology, automatic QA, concordance etc. There are obviously some compromises due to the browser nature of the interface but we are open to all suggestions on how to improve things for translators. Your feedback is very important to us.

The browser nature of the DocZone translation environment has many advantages though: there is no desktop software to buy/maintain/upgrade. The translator does hot have to pay for anything to use it. It also allows all translators on the system to share terminology and memory dynamically, including fuzzy matches etc. In addition it can cope with files of infinite size and allow multiple translators and reviewers to work on the same file at the same time: joined up translation. As connection speeds constantly improve, then this online method of working will become the norm. Look at how successful SalesForce.com has become.

As DocZone is completely based on Open Standards the editor is driven by the XLIFF file for the document. Rodolfo's Swordfish editor is certified to perfectly round trip with DocZone and is the recommended CAT tool for DocZone. A facility to download XLIFF files and work on them off line may be made available in the future. Unfortunately XLIFF support is very patchy with many other desktop tools at present and may result in failure to upload translated files.

There is most probably a simple explanation for the lack of matching. It could be that the customer did not have access to the previous memories when moving to DocZone. Did you supply a TMX export for your customer? Did the customer author previously in XML? It is possible that during the migration to XML and to DocZone no account was made of aligning and importing previous TMs.

It is very easy to criticize unfairly without knowledge of all of the facts.

Best Regards,

Andrzej Zydroń


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Csaba Ban  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 14:05
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
thank you for your comments Oct 14, 2009

Czesc Andrzeje,

I appreciate that you commented on this thread, since you are the main developer of this application.

I have no problem with cloud computing. I simply don't understand why the client insists on using DocZone when it's admittedly under development and lacks many of the features that are more or less standard in desktop based CAT tools.

What I meant by missing fuzzy matches is that sometimes there's no fuzzy match offered even though I translated a very similar sentence just two segments before (in DocZone).

Penalties are also not really useful as they are now. For example in two different sentences that are almost identical, except that in one of them the verb is in infinitive form, and in the other one the verb is in gerund form, the fuzzyness level is only around 78%.

With such heavy penalty points and the fact that I cannot set the threshold of showing fuzzy matches ( I think they are set at 75%), many useful fuzzy matches are not displayed at all.

A very useful improvement would be automatic insertion of terminology. If I add a term using the existing context menu, it would be VERY useful for DocZone to automatically insert such terms into target segments when there's a full terminology match.

I'm preparing some feedback with specific examples to my client, I think they will reach you eventually.

What would really make my life easier is the option of exporting source files in xml or xliff format, translate them offline, then sending them back to DocZone.

As far as I know, MemoQ can already process xliff files, and DVX will offer this option very soon.

kind regards from chilly Budapest,
Csaba


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 14:05
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Some comments to Andrzej Oct 14, 2009

azydron wrote:
The browser nature of the DocZone translation environment has many advantages though: there is no desktop software to buy/maintain/upgrade. The translator does not have to pay for anything to use it.


Although some CAT tools are very expensive, the real cost of using a CAT tool is the time it takes to reach a certain level of proficiency and productivity. It is unlikely that a client will increase a translator's pay by the factor that his productivity has decreased owing to use of the new tool (in the case of the original poster, 40%). There is also the frustration factor. So whichever way you look at it, the translator may well be worse off than he was before.

That said, I wish you good luck with the development of DocZone -- web-based applications are a thing of the future, no doubt. And I have not seen DocZone (since I have no clients there), so I'm not in the ideal position to comment on it.


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 14:05
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Screenshots Oct 14, 2009

Csaba Ban wrote:
Anyone has any experience with DocZone?


No, but for other readers here who might want to have a look at the translation interface, I found some screenshots of it:

* http://www.doczone.com/assets/doczone_brochure.pdf (page 2) (3.5 MB)
* http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/29778/AndrzejZydron_TechOASIS_DITA_XLIFF_Translation.pdf (page 26) (2.1 MB)


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DocZone Oct 14, 2009

Dear Csaba,

Thank you for your reply and apologies. This is something new that we have not come across so far. Normally cascade matching both leveraged and fuzzy works without any problems, and has done so for a long time. We need to track down what is happening in this instance. Can I ask you to get in touch with me directly on azydron@xml-intl.com. I will get my support engineers to find out what is going wrong. You can also reach me on Skype - my handle is 'zydron'.

Thank you for your feedback and suggestion regarding terminology. This is already on our roadmap for later on this year. We would appreciate any other suggestions that you would have regarding the interface and other ways of improving the system.

DocZone are running an older version of the software. They will be updated to a major new release next month with lots of improvements.

Best Regards,

Andrzej Zydroń


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EL Cavanaugh
New Zealand
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
how do I get to the translation interface in the DocZone? Jun 17, 2015

My first time in DocZOne - can not find the translation in there which I am supposed to check - please advice.

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