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Off topic: 茶馆 : 所有"无关紧要的"话题
Thread poster: xxxchance
ysun  Identity Verified
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也抒一下情 Mar 23, 2010

当我登上 Rocky Mountain 时,我的心情就与当年在黄土高原上一样激动。当我站在 Niagara Falls 前时,我的思绪就像当年在黄河边一样起伏。

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怎么会不值得? Mar 23, 2010

wherestip wrote:

Yueyin,

那现场记者之多啊, 真吓人. 当中央领导人的口头翻译连古诗也得记得滚瓜烂熟, 事后还要被学术界的人评头品足, 我看再高的薪水都不值得.:D

Kidding aside, 确实如你所说,"regret to" (infinitive) 是 "抱歉" 的意思. 表达 "后悔" 的意思是要用 regret(intransitive) 或者 regret(transitive) + noun/gerund.




当年某国务院外事办的女同传后来不是被德意志银行招去做了中国区的COO(还是CEO)了么?

而且,这些人不仅是后天努力,先天的禀赋也应该是强于常人的。所以他们达到这种境界,别人也许会觉得很难,但对他们来讲不见得真那么难。人的天资是不同的,有些东西仅仅想靠后天勤能补拙是很难的。


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蒸不烂、煮不熟、捶不匾、炒不爆、响当当一粒铜豌豆 :D Mar 23, 2010

ysun wrote:

如果你不想再继续讨论,尽管请便,但别人是否仍想继续,那是应由别人自行决定的事情。我在此论坛与某些同仁讨论问题甚至激烈争论,往往并不是为了试图说服某些特定的对象,因为某些人是永远都别想说服的。但我相信,这种讨论对大家总是有益的,也包括对我自己。况且,尽管很多人没发言,但他们在默默地看。我相信大家自有公论。我的时间也很宝贵,我不会随便浪费。





不过我还是怎么看 I'd not 怎么别扭,如果换成 I would not 或者 I wouldn't 我都会觉得听着舒服点儿。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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celebrity Mar 23, 2010

Laura Liu wrote:

怎么会不值得?



Laura,

I was only half joking about that.

But seriously speaking, certainly it is a prestigious job that squarely puts one in the limelight; and in all likelihood it's a good-paying job coveted by many. Yet with the celebrity status also comes a lot of expectation and responsibility, not to mention the constant public scrutiny. So in my opinion there is a tradeoff.

俗话怎么说来着? "人怕出名猪怕壮" ... but here again I'm just kidding.


[Edited at 2010-03-24 00:52 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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讨论翻译问题的主要意义 Mar 23, 2010

Laura Liu wrote:

蒸不烂、煮不熟、捶不匾、炒不爆、响当当一粒铜豌豆
ysun wrote:

如果你不想再继续讨论,尽管请便,但别人是否仍想继续,那是应由别人自行决定的事情。我在此论坛与某些同仁讨论问题甚至激烈争论,往往并不是为了试图说服某些特定的对象,因为某些人是永远都别想说服的。但我相信,这种讨论对大家总是有益的,也包括对我自己。况且,尽管很多人没发言,但他们在默默地看。我相信大家自有公论。我的时间也很宝贵,我不会随便浪费。


我一直认为,讨论翻译问题的主要意义在于其过程,在于共同提高,而不在于一定要说服谁,更不在于比个谁高谁低。某些人确实是永远都别想说服的。例如,以前有人坚持认为 “昨晚我一定是醉了”应该译成 "I must be drunk last night”。还说,根据他的语法书,"I must have been drunk last night” 是错误的。他把 "must have been drunk” 分析成现在完成时,所以认为不能与 "last night” 连用。为了证明他是对的,他还编了个明显错误的句子 "He has come last night” 作为对比,弄到 English KudoZ 那里去问。结果,在那里被人幽了一默。有人说:"You have to get a new grammar book!” 另一位说:"He must have been drunk last night when he decided to ask this question!” 其实,问题不一定就出于他的语法书,而在于他自己没有真正理解语法,死搬硬套。

再如,某人把推销产品的广告词 "The results couldn’t be more satisfying” 译为“效果不能再令人满意!” 既然“效果不能再令人满意”,难道还能推销得出去吗?我告诉他,意思正好弄颠倒了,但他坚持认为自己没错。对于这种不可理喻的人,你还有必要去说服他吗?

但是,我相信这种讨论对于其他参与者(包括我自己)以及旁观者都会是有益的,所以才会继续参与。以上只是就事论事,不针对任何具体个人。

[Edited at 2010-03-24 14:25 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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千里挑一 Mar 26, 2010

Laura Liu wrote:

这些人不仅是后天努力,先天的禀赋也应该是强于常人的。所以他们达到这种境界,别人也许会觉得很难,但对他们来讲不见得真那么难。人的天资是不同的,有些东西仅仅想靠后天勤能补拙是很难的。

口译难,难就难在必须当场立即作出反应,没有时间多斟酌,更谈不上查词典、翻参考书。这些人都是千里挑一挑出来的,不但基本功扎实,而且经过循序渐进的无数次锻练和考验。所以对他们而言,这种场合就不是那么难了。其实,外交部以及其它国家部门还有许多水平与张璐相当的优秀译员。

1985年我到美国参加毫秒炉裂解装置的合作设计和设备采购。当时因我公司的翻译忙不过来,就从下属单位借了两名英语翻译。其中一名原来是钳工,自学成才。在休斯顿工作期间,有时总承包商和设备供应商与中方人员讨论问题时节奏很快,我方翻译不得不尝试同传的方式。我发现他果然很优秀。次年,他以优异成绩被北京外语学院联合国同传译员训练班破格录取,成为译训班历史上少有的未上过大学的学员之一。据说训练十分严格,某些学员没毕业就被淘汰。这位朋友毕业后,一开始到外交部工作,不久后又到联合国工作。工作一直十分出色。


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ysun  Identity Verified
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Public scrutiny Mar 26, 2010

wherestip wrote:

Yet with the celebrity status also comes a lot of expectation and responsibility, not to mention the constant public scrutiny.

其实,最近网上人们对张璐议论纷纷、褒贬不一,就是因为某些媒体一开始捧得太过火,从而引起一些人的质疑。例如,“行百里者半九十”这句话,张璐是理解错了、翻译错了,但某点评专家却说,“fall by the way side” 在英语中是半途而废的意思,用英语中的成语来翻译中国古语,对接得很巧妙”。另外,有些明明不是张璐的错,也被强加到她头上。例如,“I’d not regret a thousand times to die” 明明不是张璐说的,也被强加到她头上。实际上,这种错译很可能就是来自该专家的点评。该专家说,“九死翻译成thousand times(上千次),很地道”。结果,媒体就以讹传讹。如果没有看过实况转播或听不懂英语的人误认为这是张璐的翻译,那还情有可原,但身为某著名外语学院英语系主任的点评专家也把 deaths 错听成 times,那就太说不过去了。如果该专家的英语听力是这等水平,要想听懂讲话速度极快的美国人讲话那就更费劲了。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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所以呢 Mar 26, 2010

ysun wrote:

wherestip wrote:

Yet with the celebrity status also comes a lot of expectation and responsibility, not to mention the constant public scrutiny.

其实,最近网上人们对张璐议论纷纷、褒贬不一,就是因为某些媒体一开始捧得太过火,从而引起一些人的质疑。例如,“行百里者半九十”这句话,张璐是理解错了、翻译错了,但某点评专家却说,“fall by the way side” 在英语中是半途而废的意思,用英语中的成语来翻译中国古语,对接得很巧妙”。另外,有些明明不是张璐的错,也被强加到她头上。例如,“I’d not regret a thousand times to die” 明明不是张璐说的,也被强加到她头上。实际上,这种错译很可能就是来自该专家的点评。该专家说,“九死翻译成thousand times(上千次),很地道”。结果,媒体就以讹传讹。如果没有看过实况转播或听不懂英语的人误认为这是张璐的翻译,那还情有可原,但身为某著名外语学院英语系主任的点评专家也把 deaths 错听成 times,那就太说不过去了。如果该专家的英语听力是这等水平,要想听懂讲话速度极快的美国人讲话那就更费劲了。


Yueyin,

是这样. 评论得对了倒也罢, 评论的 "专家" 自己都没搞懂就乱讲一通, 岂不是添乱.

其实也是的, 哪儿有那么多好评论的. 像你说的, 不服的话, 下次亲自上阵.


[Edited at 2010-03-26 19:30 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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看人挑担不吃力 Mar 26, 2010

wherestip wrote:

Yueyin,

是这样. 评论得对了倒也罢, 评论的 "专家" 自己都没搞懂就乱讲一通, 岂不是添乱.

其实也是的, 哪儿有那么多好评论的. 像你说的, 不服的话, 下次亲自上阵.

有些人往往对译员要求过高。其实,译员偶然出些差错是难免的。连联合国同声译员也难免出错。看人挑担不吃力,挑别人的错总是容易的,等自己上阵就知道胆子重了。前不久有人在评论张璐这事时提到,改革开放初期,某铸钢厂与美商谈合资,请了一位北外毕业的副教授来当翻译。结果那位副教授上来第一句话就在“铸钢”一词上卡壳。幸亏有在场的厂长提示才才没有出丑。类似的情况我也见过许多。

中国对电视台新闻主播也要求过高,据说念错一句话就得下岗。美国ABC、CNN、CBS的新闻主播时而会念错,人家道歉一声就接着往下念,也没人去计较。不过,如果哪个州长、议员抢了记者的录音笔,恐怕就得引咎辞职!


[Edited at 2010-03-27 01:29 GMT]


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nigerose  Identity Verified
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再说一句 Mar 27, 2010

ysun wrote:

如果你不想再继续讨论,尽管请便,但别人是否仍想继续,那是应由别人自行决定的事情。我在此论坛与某些同仁讨论问题甚至激烈争论,往往并不是为了试图说服某些特定的对象,因为某些人是永远都别想说服的。但我相信,这种讨论对大家总是有益的,也包括对我自己。况且,尽管很多人没发言,但他们在默默地看。我相信大家自有公论。我的时间也很宝贵,我不会随便浪费。


这茶喝到这会儿,也许喝出点味儿来了。:D 现在回到主题。关于“虽九死其犹未悔”几种不同的译法,简单归纳一下我的主要看法:

"Regret to Die” is grammatically wrong.

"Regret ... times” doesn’t even make any sense (如果把 times 看成是 regret 的宾语).

"Regret dying” or "Regret ... deaths” is grammatically correct and makes perfect sense.

[Edited at 2010-03-21 04:01 GMT]


我后来发现English natives对regret的用法都没有比较统一的意见,所以觉得我没有资格讨论下去了。而且讨论的确很费时间,没有其他人参与,也就没意思了。

我们讨论问题用中文就可以了,没必要用英文下结论,注意互联网的信息传播力。

我再举出一些例子供参考。
关于regret的词义
Regret基本词义就是feel sorry。sorry是地道的英文词,regret来自古法语,但已经成为英文的常用词汇了。
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/regret
to regret (third-person singular simple present regrets, present participle regretting, simple past and past participle regretted)
1. To feel sorry about (a thing that has happened): to wish that a thing had not happened, that something else had happened instead.
2. (more generally) To feel sorry about (any thing).
I regret that I have to do this, but I don't have a choice.

因此不用区分为“遗憾”和“后悔”这两个词义,要区分也是在中文翻译中根据情况区别使用。


关于regret + 不定式或者regret + 动名词,有大同但小异的说法,比如:

1. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/regret
Usage notes
• This is a catenative verb that takes the gerund (the -ing form), except in set phrases with tell, say, and inform, where the to infinitive is used.
2.http://faculty.washington.edu/marynell/grammar/infini.html
Regret + infinitive
–is used mostly in announcements of bad news (注意mostly)
We regret to inform passengers that the 14.50 train for Tacoma will leave approximately 45 minutes late.
Regret + gerund
refers back to past–something that one is sorry one did (注意past)
I regret leaving school at 14 – it was a big mistake.
3.
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Regret + infinitive = be sorry that you must do something. I regret to say / to inform you that you have failed the exam. (注意must do something,尽管还是举出say和inform的例子)
Regret + gerund = Be sorry that you have done something. She regrets having so many children.
www.wordpowered.org/InWords/files/nah_wordwork.pdf

关于regret to die
比较权威的出处例如是:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20509/20509-h/20509-h.htm
“He was only a soldier in the performance of the duty he had been detailed to do; that he did not regret to die for his country, but only regretted the manner of his death. ”

http://www.stgemmagalgani.com/2009/09/catholic-prayers-preparation-for-death.html

"But tell me Gemma", continued her Aunt, "do you not regret to die?" 'Oh no,' she answered, 'I no longer have any attachment to anything in this world.'

http://www.logoslibrary.org/dumas/vicomte/161.html
“Tell Madame that I no longer regret to die, since she has remembered me”

关于regret a thousand times to die:
Death本来是不可数名词,因此a thousand deaths to die可以认为是从a thousand times of death to die变来。又如:

three repetitions (三次重复)也可以说three times of repetition
one million vibrations(一百万次振动)也可以说one million times of vibration

death和die同根同义,省略death变成a thousand times to die也讲的通。当然a thousand times容易被误解为修饰regret。另外,逻辑上讲得通跟现实中人们如何使用是两回事。



[修改时间: 2010-03-27 04:52 GMT]

[修改时间: 2010-03-27 04:54 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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先请问一下 Mar 27, 2010

nigerose wrote:

关于regret to die
比较权威的出处例如是:

如果你认为 regret to die 是符合语法的话,是否意味着 regret 后面可以跟任何动词不定式?如果你的答复是‘否’,那么哪类动词不定式可以跟,哪类不可以跟?


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nigerose  Identity Verified
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不定式的语法作用 Mar 27, 2010

ysun wrote:

nigerose wrote:

关于regret to die
比较权威的出处例如是:

如果你认为 regret to die 是符合语法的话,是否意味着 regret 后面可以跟任何动词不定式?如果你的答复是‘否’,那么哪类动词不定式可以跟,哪类不可以跟?


根据不定式的语法作用,即可以做宾语,“regret+不定式”在语法上是对的,不定式短语表示regret这个动词(动作)的对象,尽管“regret+不定式”常用来表示“announcements of bad news ”。



不定式的形式多样,见下表。
主动形式(A); 被动形式(B)
一般式(1) to do;to be done
完成式(2) to have done;to have been done
进行式(3) to be doing
完成进行式(4) to have been doing

把regret套用上表,有:
1A不定式
Google例子:很多
2A不定式
Google例子:很多
3A不定式
Google例子:
“Much as I regret to be saying it, but these people are history.”
http://enews.ferghana.ru/article.php?id=1261
“If you say yes to a bad proposal, you will regret to be living with it”
http://www.drmardy.com/chiasmus/masters/ridley.shtml
4A不定式
Google例子:
“Surely I am not talking about ridiculous acts of people, if female or male, attending Spring Break and other "modern occasions" where they later regret to have been drinking too much etc.“
http://www.joomlart.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27878
1B不定式
Google例子:
“I regret to be driven to the conclusion that, as the law stands, those are the rights of a debenture holder entitled to a floating charge. ...”
http://books.google.com/books?id=GAiK0gYOroEC&pg=PA525&lpg=PA525&dq=“regret%20to%20be”&source=bl&ots=g5ZoWRn2-8&sig=D71tKIXOD1jVuJf8e1fWD9qkDBw&hl=en&ei=v8GtS8u1JM2TkAXEypSjDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CBsQ6AEwBzgy#v=onepage&q=“regret%20to%20be”&f=false
2B不定式
“However, he put on a high look: "A Hangman, such as you, naturally takes pleasure in talking of his tools and his trade: but on me they will not produce any effect. I have owned everything;--and almost regret to have done so."(Carlyle, History of Friedrich II of Prussia)”
http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/28096-i-regret-having-done-vs-have-done-something.html

还有不定式的否定式,比如
“I regret not to know from whom it came, as I should like to give him in public my thanks.”
http://www.nytimes.com/1861/01/09/news/kossuth-on-garibaldi-and-austria.html?pagewanted=1

“I gladly say that we are all unselfishly pleased to have served this use, although naturally we regret not to have been allowed ourselves to render active service. ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt's_World_War_I_volunteers

以上一些例子来自权威出版物和媒体。

因此regret可以接不定式、动名词还有名词作宾语,表示regret的对象,也就是说英语本族词“sorry”的对象。

[修改时间: 2010-03-27 09:18 GMT]


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xxxwonita
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成功的配方 Mar 27, 2010

成功=天赋+勤奋+毅力+良好的心理素质+些许运气

我们这一代人,大概是受中国经济飞速发展的影响,多少有些浮燥,追求急功近利;和前辈们比起来,缺少坚韧不拔的吃苦精神,而且心理素质不够好,很多人不能正确对待失败和挫折。

孙先生开始学英语时年龄已经不小,能够取得今天的成就,除了有一定的天赋以外,肯定和您本人的努力有很大关系。所以我想请您有空谈谈学习心得,尤其是您如何对待挫折和困难,对我们年轻人肯定会有帮助。

ysun wrote:

1985年我到美国参加毫秒炉裂解装置的合作设计和设备采购。当时因我公司的翻译忙不过来,就从下属单位借了两名英语翻译。其中一名原来是钳工,自学成才。在休斯顿工作期间,有时总承包商和设备供应商与中方人员讨论问题时节奏很快,我方翻译不得不尝试同传的方式。我发现他果然很优秀。次年,他以优异成绩被北京外语学院联合国同传译员训练班破格录取,成为译训班历史上少有的未上过大学的学员之一。据说训练十分严格,某些学员没毕业就被淘汰。这位朋友毕业后,一开始到外交部工作,不久后又到联合国工作。工作一直十分出色。


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xxxwonita
China
Local time: 21:50
句子组织 Mar 27, 2010

ysun wrote:
口译难,难就难在必须当场立即作出反应,没有时间多斟酌,更谈不上查词典、翻参考书。

我在口译时经常组织不好句子。即使所有的词都能听懂,但由于西方语言的句式和中文很不一样,有时说到一半会有说不下去的情况,必须重新开始;还有的时候虽然明知有误,但由于时间关系,还得硬着头皮说完。好在一般情况下,只要能把意思讲清楚就行,没人会对语法斤斤计较。

[Edited at 2010-03-27 16:58 GMT]


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