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Off topic: 茶馆 : 所有"无关紧要的"话题
Thread poster: xxxchance
ysun  Identity Verified
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争论的焦点 Mar 27, 2010

nigerose wrote:

ysun wrote:

nigerose wrote:

关于regret to die
比较权威的出处例如是:

如果你认为 regret to die 是符合语法的话,是否意味着 regret 后面可以跟任何动词不定式?如果你的答复是‘否’,那么哪类动词不定式可以跟,哪类不可以跟?


根据不定式的语法作用,即可以做宾语,“regret+不定式”在语法上是对的,不定式短语表示regret这个动词(动作)的对象,尽管“regret+不定式”常用来表示“announcements of bad news ”。

不定式的形式多样,见下表。


2B不定式
“However, he put on a high look: "A Hangman, such as you, naturally takes pleasure in talking of his tools and his trade: but on me they will not produce any effect. I have owned everything;--and almost regret to have done so."(Carlyle, History of Friedrich II of Prussia)”
http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/28096-i-regret-having-done-vs-have-done-something.html


从前面的讨论看来,我们争论的焦点就在于:你认为 regret 后面可以跟任何形式的任何动词不定式,而我认为 regret 后面只可以跟有限的几个动词不定式,而且 “regret + gerund” 与 “regret + infinitive” 不但形式不同,连意思都不同。看来,你的观点完全是基于 Google 搜索结果。那么,就让我借用一下你上面举的那个例子,其完整的引文如下(经过你掐头去尾,意思就全变了):

You sometimes find the "regret to have done" construction in older texts, e.g.

1. However, he put on a high look: "A Hangman, such as you, naturally takes pleasure in talking of his tools and his trade: but on me they will not produce any effect. I have owned everything;--and almost regret to have done so."(Carlyle, History of Friedrich II of Prussia)

But it would sound a little odd in modern standard English.

再来看看其中另一人的意见:


First of all, don't trust Google too much. Remember that it's used by many non-native speakers. Instead, try to use a corpus, such as http://www.collins.co.uk/Corpus/CorpusSearch.aspx
But even in Google, the results for ""I regret not to have" are 292, compared to 68500 for ""I regret not having".
In Collins WordbanksOnline English corpus, the results were as follows:
"regret+not+having"
=4 results
"regret+not+to+have"
=0
"regretted+not+having"
=3 results
"regretted+not+to+have"
=0
Thus, we could conclude that "regret not to have done something" is either extremely rare or, more probably, flat out ungrammatical.

既然你说“以上一些例子来自权威出版物和媒体”,那么你是否同意这两个 native English speakers 所说的话?


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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rule of thumb Mar 27, 2010

nigerose wrote:


关于regret + 不定式或者regret + 动名词,有大同但小异的说法,比如:

1. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/regret
Usage notes
• This is a catenative verb that takes the gerund (the -ing form), except in set phrases with tell, say, and inform, where the to infinitive is used.

2. http://faculty.washington.edu/marynell/grammar/infini.html
Regret + infinitive
–is used mostly in announcements of bad news (注意mostly)
We regret to inform passengers that the 14.50 train for Tacoma will leave approximately 45 minutes late.
Regret + gerund
refers back to past–something that one is sorry one did (注意past)
I regret leaving school at 14 – it was a big mistake.

3. File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Regret + infinitive = be sorry that you must do something. I regret to say / to inform you that you have failed the exam. (注意must do something,尽管还是举出say和inform的例子)
Regret + gerund = Be sorry that you have done something. She regrets having so many children.
www.wordpowered.org/InWords/files/nah_wordwork.pdf



nigerose,

I think those are some pretty good practical and succinct rules you found there. As a matter of fact, the explanations in all three links coincide with what Yueyin has been saying all along, i.e., generally speaking, there is a difference in meaning and usage between "regret + infinitive" and "regret + gerund".

Yet there are always some exceptions to the rules when it comes to the use of language, especially as in this case where both "regret + (infinitive or gerund)" are acceptable grammatical forms. Your Google results do indeed show that not everyone is always as conscientious in distinguishing between the two as others.

As to the translation of the verse in question, "I wouldn't regret dying a thousand deaths" or "I wouldn't regret dying a thousand times over" would be my choice for the most grammatically correct.

As Yueyin mentioned, the past, present, or future tense issue in this instance is a moot point because of the subjunctive mood -- no one could really die more than one death in reality anyway. I could also easily come up with some simple sentences that demonstrate that the "regret + gerund" form does not necessarily only apply to events that happened in the past. That rule might be only a rough guide for a summary explanation.

You'd regret not finishing college.
You'll regret not taking the doctor's advice seriously.


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ysun  Identity Verified
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《朗文现代英汉双解词典》 Mar 27, 2010

《朗文现代英汉双解词典》中关于动词 regret 的说明如下:

1. to be sorry about (a sad fact or event) 懊悔;惋惜;遗憾:
to regret someone’s death 惋惜某人之死.
We’ve always regretted selling the farm 我们一直后悔把农场卖了.
I regret having called (=that I called) him a thief, but I regret even more his stealing my watch 我很后悔叫他小偷,可是我更遗憾他偷了我的表!
She regrets that she can’t come 她因不能来而感到遗憾.

2. to be sorry that one has lost; miss very much 思念:
I don’t mind living in the city, but I do regret my horse 我不介意住在城市里,可是我确怀念我的马!

3. I/We regret to say/to inform you/to tell you (fml) (used when bad news is to follow) (正式)很抱歉地告诉你(用于告知坏消息之时):
We regret to inform you that you are to be dismissed next week 我们很抱歉地通知你,你下星期就要被解雇了.

张道真编著的《实用英语语法》提到,在 regret 等动词后,“可以用动名词作宾语,也可以用不定式”,但他未说明在什么情况下可以用不定式以及可以用哪些动词不定式。这大概是造成许多人误解的原因。不过,他举的例子仍然还是 "I regret to say”。在中国出版的某些英汉词典中,关于 regret + infinitive 的例句,也都属于 regret to say/inform 的范畴。


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ysun  Identity Verified
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说明一下 Mar 28, 2010

Bin Tiede wrote:

孙先生开始学英语时年龄已经不小,能够取得今天的成就,除了有一定的天赋以外,肯定和您本人的努力有很大关系。所以我想请您有空谈谈学习心得,尤其是您如何对待挫折和困难,对我们年轻人肯定会有帮助。

ysun wrote:

1985年我到美国参加毫秒炉裂解装置的合作设计和设备采购。当时因我公司的翻译忙不过来,就从下属单位借了两名英语翻译。其中一名原来是钳工,自学成才。在休斯顿工作期间,有时总承包商和设备供应商与中方人员讨论问题时节奏很快,我方翻译不得不尝试同传的方式。我发现他果然很优秀。次年,他以优异成绩被北京外语学院联合国同传译员训练班破格录取,成为译训班历史上少有的未上过大学的学员之一。据说训练十分严格,某些学员没毕业就被淘汰。这位朋友毕业后,一开始到外交部工作,不久后又到联合国工作。工作一直十分出色。

谢谢你的夸奖。不过,我没什么成就,英语水平也一般,仍在继续学习。上面提到1985年我到美国参加合作设计和设备采购,当时我是中方的项目经理,不是翻译(不过此前我担任过技术会谈的翻译)。所谓“我方翻译不得不尝试同传的方式”也并非是真正意义上的同传,而只是由翻译把总承包商与设备供应商的讲话要点即时转达给与会的中方技术人员。在其它大部分时间里,都是小型会议,采取consecutive interpretation 的方式。

我上面提到的那位联合国译员,文革爆发时还在念小学,所以后来失去了上大学的机会,进厂当了钳工。但是,他不甘受命运摆布,坚持自学英语,后来被调到他们公司外事处担任英语翻译,并从此一步一步地改变了自己的人生。当时他的翻译水平就很高,而且连发音都是美国调。后来他被联合国同传译员训练班破格录取,并成为联合国译员,决非偶然。

Steve (wherestip)也是如此。他生于美国,后来随父母回中国。由于文革,他也没能在中国上大学,而是到陕西插队落户。由于他父母的远见卓识,以及他自己的努力,他的英语一直没有丢。所以在文革后,经过考试他被国家某翻译中心录用。中美建交后,他回到美国,获得BS和MS学位后,一直在IBM工作直至退休。

以上两位都是不甘受命运摆布,把命运掌握在自己手中的典型例子。

我是文革前上的大学,第一外语是俄语。大学四年级才开始学英语,确实较晚,而且不久后就被文革打断。不过我也可以说,学英语改变了我的人生轨迹。

与我们这一代人相比,你们是十分幸运的。只要在挫折和困难面前不屈不挠,一定能够实现自己的目标。

[Edited at 2010-03-28 00:27 GMT]


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nigerose  Identity Verified
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并不有意掐头去尾 Mar 28, 2010

ysun wrote:


从前面的讨论看来,我们争论的焦点就在于:你认为 regret 后面可以跟任何形式的任何动词不定式,而我认为 regret 后面只可以跟有限的几个动词不定式,而且 “regret + gerund” 与 “regret + infinitive” 不但形式不同,连意思都不同。看来,你的观点完全是基于 Google 搜索结果。那么,就让我借用一下你上面举的那个例子,其完整的引文如下(经过你掐头去尾,意思就全变了):

You sometimes find the "regret to have done" construction in older texts, e.g.

1. However, he put on a high look: "A Hangman, such as you, naturally takes pleasure in talking of his tools and his trade: but on me they will not produce any effect. I have owned everything;--and almost regret to have done so."(Carlyle, History of Friedrich II of Prussia)

But it would sound a little odd in modern standard English.

再来看看其中另一人的意见:


First of all, don't trust Google too much. Remember that it's used by many non-native speakers. Instead, try to use a corpus, such as http://www.collins.co.uk/Corpus/CorpusSearch.aspx
But even in Google, the results for ""I regret not to have" are 292, compared to 68500 for ""I regret not having".
In Collins WordbanksOnline English corpus, the results were as follows:
"regret+not+having"
=4 results
"regret+not+to+have"
=0
"regretted+not+having"
=3 results
"regretted+not+to+have"
=0
Thus, we could conclude that "regret not to have done something" is either extremely rare or, more probably, flat out ungrammatical.

既然你说“以上一些例子来自权威出版物和媒体”,那么你是否同意这两个 native English speakers 所说的话?


我并没有有意掐头去尾,你标蓝色的部分我也早就看到了,评论人员也并没有说它们100%错误。我只是举例说明存在这样的用法,尽管可能非常少或者现代英语不再使用。
这个问题我不再讨论,也没有资格再讨论,你如果感兴趣可以与natives去讨论。
By the way,张道真《实用英语语法》(最新版)第301页中有这么一个例句:
I remember to have told you about it.


[修改时间: 2010-03-28 01:20 GMT]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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谢谢 Mar 28, 2010

ysun wrote:

Steve (wherestip)也是如此。
...



Yueyin 英文程度确实是非常可观. 你是太谦虚了.

其实我原本对生活就没有什么奢望, 文革后返美时已年近三十, 赶紧上大学以亡羊补牢. 毕业后一直老老实实地作 Engineer.

美国有一说法也许对一些工作或生活上暂时碰到困难的年轻人会有点启发: If you are given lemons, make lemonade.



http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/if%20you%20are%20given%20lemons%20make%20lemonade.html

Idiom: If you are given lemons make lemonade

Always try and make the best out of a bad situation. With some ingenuity you can make a bad situation useful.




[Edited at 2010-03-28 04:01 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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这个问题本来就不应该是个问题 Mar 28, 2010

nigerose wrote:

我并没有有意掐头去尾,你标蓝色的部分我也早就看到了,评论人员也并没有说它们100%错误。我只是举例说明存在这样的用法,尽管可能非常少或者现代英语不再使用。
这个问题我不再讨论,也没有资格再讨论,你如果感兴趣可以与natives去讨论。
By the way,张道真《实用英语语法》(最新版)第301页中有这么一个例句:
I remember to have told you about it.


[修改时间: 2010-03-28 01:20 GMT]

对我而言,这个问题本来就不是个问题,而且这里的一位 native English speaker 也已经明确表达了他的意见。因此,我没有必要再去麻烦其他 native English speakers。

倒是你自己,坚持认为 "I’d not regret a thousand times to die” 没错,而且根据那个中考网站《点睛考试网》的说法,认为把张璐的那句翻译改成 "I'd not regret to die a thousand times” 更好。如果你有兴趣与 native English speakers 去讨论这个问题,尽管请便。但我很抱歉地告诉你,你在他们那里将很难找到支持者。如若不信,不妨一试。

By the way, I remember having told you that 《点睛考试网》的那篇中考辅导文章是错误的,是误人子弟的。


[Edited at 2010-03-28 03:43 GMT]


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nigerose  Identity Verified
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错误纰漏到处都有 Mar 28, 2010

ysun wrote:

nigerose wrote:

我并没有有意掐头去尾,你标蓝色的部分我也早就看到了,评论人员也并没有说它们100%错误。我只是举例说明存在这样的用法,尽管可能非常少或者现代英语不再使用。
这个问题我不再讨论,也没有资格再讨论,你如果感兴趣可以与natives去讨论。
By the way,张道真《实用英语语法》(最新版)第301页中有这么一个例句:
I remember to have told you about it.


[修改时间: 2010-03-28 01:20 GMT]

对我而言,这个问题本来就不是个问题,而且这里的一位 native English speaker 也已经明确表达了他的意见。因此,我没有必要再去麻烦其他 native English speakers。

倒是你自己根据那个中考网站《点睛考试网》的说法,认为把张璐的那句翻译改成 "I'd not regret to die a thousand times” 更好。如果你有兴趣与 native English speakers 去讨论这个问题,尽管请便。但我很抱歉地告诉你,你在他们那里将很难找到支持者。如若不信,不妨一试。

By the way, I remember having told you that 《点睛考试网》的那篇中考辅导文章是错误的,是误人子弟的。


我并不是根据那个中考网站《点睛考试网》的说法来决定如何翻译的,regret的有关用法我早就见过,我只是随便在网上找个证据在这里进行说明而已。

错误纰漏到处都有。如果你有时间,看看张道真《实用英语语法》(最新版)第2章构词法,会发现他举出的例词有一些与他阐述的构词法类型不相符。我曾有幸当面见到他,还跟他反映了这个问题。


[修改时间: 2010-03-28 03:50 GMT]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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FWIW Mar 28, 2010

Bin Tiede wrote:

ysun wrote:
口译难,难就难在必须当场立即作出反应,没有时间多斟酌,更谈不上查词典、翻参考书。


我在口译时经常组织不好句子。即使所有的词都能听懂,但由于西方语言的句式和中文很不一样,有时说到一半会有说不下去的情况,必须重新开始;还有的时候虽然明知有误,但由于时间关系,还得硬着头皮说完。好在一般情况下,只要能把意思讲清楚就行,没人会对语法斤斤计较。





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_interpretation

An interpreter is a person who converts a thought or expression in a source language into an expression with a comparable meaning in a target language in "real time". The interpreter's function is to convey every semantic element (tone and register) and every intention and feeling of the message that the source-language speaker is directing to target-language recipients.


Interpreting versus translation

Despite being used interchangeably, interpretation and translation are not synonymous, but refer, respectively, to the spoken and written transference of meaning between two languages. Interpreting occurs in real time, in the presence — physical, televised, or telephonic — of the parties for whom the interpreter renders an interpretation. Translation is the transference of meaning from text to text (written or recorded), with the translator having time and access to resources (dictionaries, glossaries, etc.) to produce a faithful, true, and accurate document or verbal artifact.

A very common, layman's misconception of interpretation is that it is rendered verbatim, that is, as a word-for-word syntactic translation of an utterance. That is impractical, because a literal, verbatim interpretation of a source-language message would be unintelligible to the target-language recipient. For example, the Spanish phrase: Está de viaje, rendered verbatim to English translates as: Is of voyage (senseless in English), yet its faithful, true, and accurate denotational and connotational interpretations in context are: ‘He/She/You is/are travelling’ or ‘He/She/You is/are out of town’. That is, the overall meaning, tone, and style in the target language are what matter, rather than the source-language syntax.

Interpretation is also held to a different standard of accuracy than translation. Translators have time to consider and revise each word and sentence before delivering their product to the client. While interpreters try to achieve total accuracy at all times, details of the original (source) speech can be omitted from the interpretation into the target language, without a pause. Conversely, in signed languages, when a word is used for which there is no sign, expansion may be necessary in order to accurately interpret the message and give the recipient the same message as those who are hearing it from the speaker.

The trained professional simultaneous interpreter, however, never omits original source language, rather they learn to provide the same information in the target language. For example, when interpreting English to Spanish, they may shorten the interpretation rendered with gender specific usage and reflexive pronouns not used in English.

In court interpretation, it is not acceptable to omit anything from the source, no matter how fast the source speaks, since not only is accuracy a principal canon for interpreters, but mandatory. The alteration of even a single word in a material way can totally mislead the triers of fact. The most important factor for this level of accuracy is the use of a team of two or more interpreters during a lengthy process, with one actively interpreting and the second monitoring for greater accuracy.

Speakers at interpreted meetings can ensure better communication of their message into other languages by slowing their delivery slightly and by adding a pause of one or two seconds at the end of each paragraph, although in practice, interpreters have to deal with difficulties such as the speaker speaking too fast, background noise, or other constraints.

Modes of interpreting
...
Types of interpreting
...
Interpreting modalities
...
Where interpreters work
...



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ysun  Identity Verified
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口译和笔译标准不同 Mar 28, 2010

Steve 介绍的这篇文章很好。确实在一般情况下,不能拿笔译的标准来要求口译,只要能把意思讲清楚就行。信、达是最主要的。从这个角度讲,口译又比笔译容易些。如果翻到后面发现前面翻译有误,应该予以更正。这样做,听众一般不会计较,反而会更加尊敬翻译。

当然,在国家领导人答中外记者问那种场合,要求则要高得多。
wherestip wrote:

Bin Tiede wrote:

ysun wrote:
口译难,难就难在必须当场立即作出反应,没有时间多斟酌,更谈不上查词典、翻参考书。


我在口译时经常组织不好句子。即使所有的词都能听懂,但由于西方语言的句式和中文很不一样,有时说到一半会有说不下去的情况,必须重新开始;还有的时候虽然明知有误,但由于时间关系,还得硬着头皮说完。好在一般情况下,只要能把意思讲清楚就行,没人会对语法斤斤计较。


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_interpretation
...
Interpretation is also held to a different standard of accuracy than translation. Translators have time to consider and revise each word and sentence before delivering their product to the client. While interpreters try to achieve total accuracy at all times, details of the original (source) speech can be omitted from the interpretation into the target language, without a pause.
...


[Edited at 2010-03-28 15:55 GMT]


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xxxwonita
China
Local time: 21:50
隔行如隔山 Mar 28, 2010

两个星期前我陪一位中国专家参观一个生产汽车传动装置的工厂,重点是要了解一个零件的生产过程和造价。那个零件就是一个小板子,上面有些接线,我称之为“板子”。结果中国专家纠正说,“那个东西应该叫芯片或元件”。

ysun wrote:

其实,译员偶然出些差错是难免的。连联合国同声译员也难免出错。看人挑担不吃力,挑别人的错总是容易的,等自己上阵就知道胆子重了。前不久有人在评论张璐这事时提到,改革开放初期,某铸钢厂与美商谈合资,请了一位北外毕业的副教授来当翻译。结果那位副教授上来第一句话就在“铸钢”一词上卡壳。幸亏有在场的厂长提示才才没有出丑。类似的情况我也见过许多。


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xxxwonita
China
Local time: 21:50
有志者事竟成 Mar 28, 2010

ysun wrote:
我是文革前上的大学,第一外语是俄语。大学四年级才开始学英语,确实较晚,而且不久后就被文革打断。不过我也可以说,学英语改变了我的人生轨迹。

这样一来我就更加敬重您了。我在国内某大学外语系工作时,系里有好几个英语老师就是俄语科班出身,后来由于教改不得不改行教英语。这几位老师英语水平相当糟糕,但他们完全是在“得过且过”地混日子,而且还怨声载道的。一方面,命运对他们是有不公的地方,但是另一方面,他们的态度很成问题,最终耽误的不仅仅是他们自己,还有很多学生。

与我们这一代人相比,你们是十分幸运的。只要在挫折和困难面前不屈不挠,一定能够实现自己的目标。

谢谢鼓励!


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ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:50
English to Chinese
+ ...
事先看些资料 Mar 29, 2010

Bin Tiede wrote:

两个星期前我陪一位中国专家参观一个生产汽车传动装置的工厂,重点是要了解一个零件的生产过程和造价。那个零件就是一个小板子,上面有些接线,我称之为“板子”。结果中国专家纠正说,“那个东西应该叫芯片或元件”。

事先可以要求厂家提供一些资料,作些准备。我们以前与外商会谈前要看很多资料,不懂的名词、术语要事先搞清,会谈时才不会“卡壳”。有些不常用的技术术语其难度不亚于温总理的古诗词。


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ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:50
English to Chinese
+ ...
无所适从 Mar 29, 2010

Bin Tiede wrote:

这样一来我就更加敬重您了。我在国内某大学外语系工作时,系里有好几个英语老师就是俄语科班出身,后来由于教改不得不改行教英语。这几位老师英语水平相当糟糕,但他们完全是在“得过且过”地混日子,而且还怨声载道的。一方面,命运对他们是有不公的地方,但是另一方面,他们的态度很成问题,最终耽误的不仅仅是他们自己,还有很多学生。

多谢美言。你那几位老师的心情我很理解。在文革前的中国,俄语占主导地位,他们是天之骄子。我们上大学时,中苏关系已经恶化。我们要求改学英语,但学校不同意。其理由竟然是:虽然苏联是修正主义,但英美是帝国主义。


[Edited at 2010-03-30 02:00 GMT]


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Jason Ma  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 08:50
English to Chinese
+ ...
... Mar 29, 2010

ysun wrote:

多谢美言。你那几位老师的心情我很理解。在文革前的中国,俄语占主导地位,他们是天之骄子。我们上大学时,中苏关系已经恶化。我们要求改学英语,但学校不同意。其理由竟然是:虽然苏联是修正主义,但英美是帝国主义。






[Edited at 2010-03-29 07:53 GMT]


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