| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | 尽管...但 Pattern Thread poster: gongchengshi
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nigerose 
China
Local time: 18:42
Chinese to English
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
sorry to be direct, but no-one over the age of 15 should be using 金山词霸。 buy a proper dictionary. We're supposed to be professionals here.
[Edited at 2012-05-16 04:23 GMT]
查阅despite作为介词的各种例句，我觉得despite只表示转折或者让步的意思，与是否negative或者prevented无关。
Op-Ed Contributor - Recession Theater - NYTimes.com
www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/opinion/10hood.html - 翻译此页
9 Oct 2010 – Despite his success, Ed was embarrassed that he didn't have a college degree, and in the fall of 1996, at 38 years old, he entered Brown as a ...
金山词霸是多种权威词典的集大成，也够专业了。
最重要的是，每种词典都不可能十全十美，不能依赖于一种词典。
[修改时间: 2012-05-16 04:45 GMT]
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 05:42
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Ambiguous at best | May 16, 2012 |
nigerose wrote:
不用连词（虽然...但是...），而用介词，也可以翻译，而且更简洁。
尽管可能是战略投资者的角色，但或许会对中国的这些问题带来新的解决思路。
Despite (In spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor, they might bring novel solutions to these issues in China.
They might bring novel solutions to these issues in China despite (in spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor.
Well, your grammar is correct. However, without the Chinese reference, very few people would understand what you mean because of the jumbled meaning of the sentence.
"Bringing novel solutions to these issues in China" is obviously a positive thing. Your sentence structure using the word "despite" implies that the role of being a strategic investor is a hindrance or negative to the realization of this positive thing.
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 05:42
Chinese to English
+ ...
| The meaning of "without being held back by something acting as an impedance" | May 16, 2012 |
nigerose wrote:
查阅despite作为介词的各种例句，我觉得despite只表示转折或者让步的意思，与是否negative或者prevented无关。
...
Here's the definition of "despite" as a preposition from the Merriam-Webster Learner's Dictionary. It says the same thing as the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English. Thank you, Yueyin, BTW.
http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/despite
de·spite /dɪˈspaɪt/ preposition
: without being prevented by (something) — used to say that something happens or is true even though there is something that might prevent it from happening or being true
▪ Despite (=in spite of) our objections, he insisted on driving.
▪ She ran the race despite an injury.
▪ Despite our best efforts to save him, the patient died during the night.
▪ They are not getting married, despite rumors to the contrary. (=even though there have been rumors saying they are getting married)
▪ Despite its small size, the device is able to store thousands of hours of music.
▪ The law has yet to be passed, despite the fact that most people are in favor of it.
http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/notwithstanding
not·with·stand·ing /ˌnɑ:twɪθˈstændɪŋ/ preposition
formal : without being prevented by (something) : despite — used to say that something happens or is true even though there is something that might prevent it from happening or being true
▪ Notwithstanding their youth and inexperience, the team won the championship. — often used after its object
▪ The law was passed, our objections notwithstanding. (=the law was passed despite our objections)
[Edited at 2012-05-16 19:54 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 05:42
English to Chinese
+ ...
| despite and notwithstanding | May 16, 2012 |
wherestip wrote:
Here's the definition of "despite" as a preposition from the Merriam-Webster Learner's Dictionary. It says the same thing as the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English. Thank you, Yueyin, BTW.
Steve,
Thanks for the links! The definitions of "despite" and "notwithstanding" are clear and very helpful. I also like Merriam-Webster Learner's Dictionary and the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English and often use them.
[Edited at 2012-05-16 18:44 GMT]
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nigerose
China
Local time: 18:42
Chinese to English
+ ...
wherestip wrote: nigerose wrote:
查阅despite作为介词的各种例句，我觉得despite只表示转折或者让步的意思，与是否negative或者prevented无关。
...
Here's the definition of "despite" as a preposition from the Merriam-Webster Learner's Dictionary. It says the same thing as the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English. Thank you, Yueyin, BTW. http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/despite
de·spite /dɪˈspaɪt/ preposition
: without being prevented by (something) — used to say that something happens or is true even though there is something that might prevent it from happening or being true
▪ Despite (=in spite of) our objections, he insisted on driving.
▪ She ran the race despite an injury.
▪ Despite our best efforts to save him, the patient died during the night.
▪ They are not getting married, despite rumors to the contrary. (=even though there have been rumors saying they are getting married)
▪ Despite its small size, the device is able to store thousands of hours of music.
▪ The law has yet to be passed, despite the fact that most people are in favor of it.
http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/notwithstanding
not·with·stand·ing /ˌnɑ:twɪθˈstændɪŋ/ preposition
formal : without being prevented by (something) : despite — used to say that something happens or is true even though there is something that might prevent it from happening or being true
▪ Notwithstanding their youth and inexperience, the team won the championship. — often used after its object
▪ The law was passed, our objections notwithstanding. (=the law was passed despite our objections)
[Edited at 2012-05-16 14:29 GMT]
de·spite /dɪˈspaɪt/ preposition
: without being prevented by (something) — used to say that something happens or is true even though there is something that might prevent it from happening or being true
这无非就是表示转折、让步关系（语气）。
若再想细究，或许楼主给出的中文句子就是病句。
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 05:42
Chinese to English
+ ...
nigerose wrote:
de·spite /dɪˈspaɪt/ preposition
: without being prevented by (something) — used to say that something happens or is true even though there is something that might prevent it from happening or being true
这无非就是表示转折、让步关系（语气）。
若再想细究，或许楼主给出的中文句子就是病句。
I disagree. As I mentioned yesterday, I believe Phil's translation is exactly what the Chinese sentence meant.
In English, the meaning of his translation is different than yours, even though you might think they are the same.
[Edited at 2012-05-16 16:20 GMT]
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 05:42
Chinese to English
+ ...
nigerose wrote:
与是否negative或者prevented无关。
？？？
| | | | nigerose
China
Local time: 18:42
Chinese to English
+ ...
| 与negative tone无关 | May 16, 2012 |
wherestip wrote: nigerose wrote:
与是否negative或者prevented无关。
？？？
至少与你说的negative tone无关，哈哈。
不然你如何解释despite his success、despite one's achievements。
despite无非就是表示转折、让步关系（语气）。
Although或者even though是常规译法，我（以及许多同仁）下意识就想到。我在这里尝试用despite介词短语，使表达更简洁（可能偏离楼主提问的初衷）。
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 05:42
Chinese to English
+ ...
nigerose wrote: wherestip wrote: nigerose wrote:
与是否negative或者prevented无关。
？？？ 至少与你说的negative tone无关，哈哈。 不然你如何解释despite his success、despite one's achievements。 despite无非就是表示转折、让步关系（语气）。 Although或者even though是常规译法，我（以及许多同仁）下意识就想到。我在这里尝试用despite介词短语，使表达更简洁（可能偏离楼主提问的初衷）。
What's there to laugh about?
In this instance, bringing in fresh ideas that can help the Chinese solve some of their problems is positive, so something that impedes or inhibits the achievement of that "ideal" is negative. Is that so hard to grasp?
On the other hand, unduly feeling embarrassed is negative while being successful is positive - just a quick-and-dirty explanation of one of the examples you picked out previously. The person's successful career should have but did not prevent him from feeling embarrassed about himself not having a college degree.
And BTW, trying to express something more concisely is one thing, changing it into something that is hard to understand, or even worse, substandard is another.
But keep using the word "despite" the way you want to. In real life, a blank stare from an English-speaking person might eventually change your mind about it.
[Edited at 2012-05-16 19:03 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 05:42
English to Chinese
+ ...
| A good translation | May 16, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
I personally like to reverse the clause order:
"They might have some useful new ideas about these problems in China, even though their role is strictly that of a strategic investor."
I agree with Steve's comment, i.e., "Phil's translation is exactly what the Chinese sentence meant".
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 18:42
Chinese to English
| To be fair, this is a subtle point | May 16, 2012 |
Wherestip is right that using despite here puts a negative connotation on the sentence which it shouldn't have. I think the reason is quite subtle.
The sentence is of the form:
Despite [X is Y], [something good]
正是因为后半句是好事，而despite暗示了前后两半是对比关系，所以用这个写法让人感觉到对投资者带有贬义的隐含。不是despite本身有负面的含义，而是despite暗示了好坏对比，反而although的�... See more Wherestip is right that using despite here puts a negative connotation on the sentence which it shouldn't have. I think the reason is quite subtle.
The sentence is of the form:
Despite [X is Y], [something good]
正是因为后半句是好事，而despite暗示了前后两半是对比关系，所以用这个写法让人感觉到对投资者带有贬义的隐含。不是despite本身有负面的含义，而是despite暗示了好坏对比，反而although的意思更像是前后半句没有直接冲突，只是关联概念。
比如：
Despite the fact that he's a pig, I still like him. 看似有冲突，用despite比较自然。
Although he's a pig, he knows a lot about his subject. 没有直接冲突，只是说这个人的两面。
当然，不是说楼主这句话不能用despite，但需要增加一些内容避免歧义：
Despite the fact that they're just in a strategic investor role, they might still be able to provide some innovative solutions to these issues in China.
Despite their role being limited to that of strategic investor, they may still offer us some interesting ideas on our China problems.
在前半句里，你要强调投资者角色的局限性，这样对照的是做事/但不是他的责任；如果是nigerose原来的版本：
Despite (In spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor, they might bring novel solutions to these issues in China.
感觉是在暗示：一般的投资者很笨，不可能提有价值的想法，但这些人说不定可提供有意义的解决方案。 ▲ Collapse
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 05:42
Chinese to English
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
Wherestip is right that using despite here puts a negative connotation on the sentence which it shouldn't have. I think the reason is quite subtle.
...
Thanks, Yueyin; Thanks, Phil. Thanks to the both of you, 'cause I felt like totally spinning my wheels. 
当然，不是说楼主这句话不能用despite，但需要增加一些内容避免歧义：
Despite the fact that they're just in a strategic investor role, they might still be able to provide some innovative solutions to these issues in China.
Despite their role being limited to that of strategic investor, they may still offer us some interesting ideas on our China problems.
在前半句里，你要强调投资者角色的局限性，这样对照的是做事/但不是他的责任；如果是nigerose原来的版本：
Despite (In spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor, they might bring novel solutions to these issues in China.
感觉是在暗示：一般的投资者很笨，不可能提有价值的想法，但这些人说不定可提供有意义的解决方案。
Exactly. I couldn't agree more.
http://www.proz.com/post/1945753#1945753 I like the 2 sentences Phil provided because they are clear and accurate. The word "despite" could indeed be used, but your sentence might need to be rephrased into something similar to what he had.
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这样的连词区别在简繁文件上是明显的。假若两岸的文件翻译转换上没有这么严格，‘吃亏’的可能是台湾的翻译同仁了。。呵～
wherestip wrote: ysun wrote:
看到小周这帖，我颇有感触。作为一种惯例，某客户总是把校稿者修改的译文返回给我，由我最后定稿。在简体译稿中，某校稿者总是把“若......，则......”改为“如果......，......”；而在繁体译稿中，就总是把“如果......，就......”改为“若......，......”。尽管客户让我决定是否接受或拒绝该校稿者的修改，但为了不必要的麻烦，后来我在简体译稿中就一律采用“如果......，就......”，在繁体译稿中就一律采用“若......，则......”。尽管如此，事情还是没有完。现在，该校稿者干脆总是把“如果......，就......”改为“如......，......”，并对客户说这样改是为了 “fit the Mainland China market terminologies”。虽然不能说这样的改法绝对是错的，但我认为完全没有必要。而且我认为，在某些情况下，“那么”、“就”之类承接语气的词还是不能省略的。 同意。 这种修改法是鸡蛋里挑骨头，完全多余。 It's similar to changing the spelling of "theater" to "theatre".
| | | | nigerose
China
Local time: 18:42
Chinese to English
+ ...
| limited context | May 17, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Wherestip is right that using despite here puts a negative connotation on the sentence which it shouldn't have. I think the reason is quite subtle.
The sentence is of the form:
Despite [X is Y], [something good]
正是因为后半句是好事，而despite暗示了前后两半是对比关系，所以用这个写法让人感觉到对投资者带有贬义的隐含。不是despite本身有负面的含义，而是despite暗示了好坏对比，反而although的意思更像是前后半句没有直接冲突，只是关联概念。
比如：
Despite the fact that he's a pig, I still like him. 看似有冲突，用despite比较自然。
Although he's a pig, he knows a lot about his subject. 没有直接冲突，只是说这个人的两面。
当然，不是说楼主这句话不能用despite，但需要增加一些内容避免歧义：
Despite the fact that they're just in a strategic investor role, they might still be able to provide some innovative solutions to these issues in China.
Despite their role being limited to that of strategic investor, they may still offer us some interesting ideas on our China problems.
在前半句里，你要强调投资者角色的局限性，这样对照的是做事/但不是他的责任；如果是nigerose原来的版本：
Despite (In spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor, they might bring novel solutions to these issues in China.
感觉是在暗示：一般的投资者很笨，不可能提有价值的想法，但这些人说不定可提供有意义的解决方案。
我们是在缺乏上下文的情况下争论。楼主的句子缺少上下文，我可以理解为：（战略投资者是唯利是图的），尽管他们只是战略投资者的角色（唯利是图），但（他们在唯利是图的过程中）也能给中国的这些问题（比如经济体制、甚至political体制的问题）提供解决方案。
我始终认为介词despite就是表示转折、让步关系（语气）。despite作为介词已经脱离了它作为名词和它的同根词despise的贬义含义（negative tone）。
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 05:42
English to Chinese
+ ...
在汉语里，“虽然…，但是”是常用句型。大概由于这个原因，不少中国人在用 although 造句时常犯的一个错误就是造出 "Although …, but …" 的句型，把不该加的 but 加上。然而，不少人在将含 if 条件从句的复合句译成中文时，却常常把“如果…，那么”、“如果…，就”、“如果…，则”、“若…，则”中的“那么”、“就”和“则”省略，大概是因为原文里就只有 if 一个连接词。用机器翻译出来的东西就尤其如此。还有小周在前面提到的“除非......，否则......”。不少人在翻译含 unless 的句子时，往往只有“除非”而没有“否则”。这样的译文念起来在语气上就总是差一些。
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