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尽管...但 Pattern Thread poster: gongchengshi
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I've found this phrase pattern in in the following text. Can anyone tell me how it is translated? I don't want to say how I would translate it because it might affect responses.
尽管可能是战略投资者的角色，但或许会对中国的这些问题带来新的解决思路。
More importantly, where is the best place to go to find out how patterns like this work? Is there a way I can learn these patterns? Another example is 如果。。。否则。 I don't find them in dictionaries because they come in two parts.
Thanks.
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| 尽管。。。。,但/ "Even though..... , (but)...." | May 15, 2012 |
Maybe you can find some input on this link:
http://wenku.baidu.com/view/91f5671b650e52ea551898be.html
On page 5 of the doc, there is a basic explanation of 尽管。。。。,但 pattern, including both meaning and structure.
"尽管。。。。,但.." is very similar to "虽然。。。,但.." in the meaning, but a little stronger than ... See more Maybe you can find some input on this link:
http://wenku.baidu.com/view/91f5671b650e52ea551898be.html
On page 5 of the doc, there is a basic explanation of 尽管。。。。,但 pattern, including both meaning and structure.
"尽管。。。。,但.." is very similar to "虽然。。。,但.." in the meaning, but a little stronger than 虽然. It can be translated as "Even though..... , (but)...." ▲ Collapse
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Phil Hand 
China
Local time: 04:05
Chinese to English
| Do not put a conjunction at the beginning of the sentence | May 15, 2012 |
Like Mariela says, this construction is similar to 虽然...但是... and a couple of other constructions, where Chinese places conjunctions before both clause. English never does this - you have to choose to place your conjunction EITHER before the first clause OR before the second clause. (Assuming here that you conserve the clause order.)
There are, of course many different ways of translating them, but my advice is: your default method should be to omit the conjunction before cl... See more Like Mariela says, this construction is similar to 虽然...但是... and a couple of other constructions, where Chinese places conjunctions before both clause. English never does this - you have to choose to place your conjunction EITHER before the first clause OR before the second clause. (Assuming here that you conserve the clause order.)
There are, of course many different ways of translating them, but my advice is: your default method should be to omit the conjunction before clause 1.
"They may be acting as a strategic investor, but even so, they could well bring some fresh approaches to these Chinese issues."
To me, the above is your basic, translation 101 approach to dealing with these sentences.
I personally like to reverse the clause order:
"They might have some useful new ideas about these problems in China, even though their role is strictly that of a strategic investor."
Where can you find out about these constructions... Any decent Chinese grammar, I assume. Have you got Yip & Rimmington? It's OK, can't remember how much detail it goes into. I believe there's a Chinese grammar wiki up, and there might be something on there. ▲ Collapse
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nigerose
China
Local time: 04:05
Chinese to English
+ ...
不用连词（虽然...但是...），而用介词，也可以翻译，而且更简洁。
尽管可能是战略投资者的角色，但或许会对中国的这些问题带来新的解决思路。
Despite (In spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor, they might bring novel solutions to these issues in China.
They might bring novel solutions to these issues in China despite (in spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor.
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Zhoudan
Local time: 04:05
English to Chinese
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除非......，否则......
如果......，那么......
如果......，就......
gongchengshi wrote:
I've found this phrase pattern in in the following text. Can anyone tell me how it is translated? I don't want to say how I would translate it because it might affect responses.
尽管可能是战略投资者的角色，但或许会对中国的这些问题带来新的解决思路。
More importantly, where is the best place to go to find out how patterns like this work? Is there a way I can learn these patterns? Another example is 如果。。。否则。 I don't find them in dictionaries because they come in two parts.
Thanks.
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 15:05
Chinese to English
+ ...
nigerose wrote:
不用连词（虽然...但是...），而用介词，也可以翻译，而且更简洁。
尽管可能是战略投资者的角色，但或许会对中国的这些问题带来新的解决思路。
Despite (In spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor, they might bring novel solutions to these issues in China.
They might bring novel solutions to these issues in China despite (in spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor.
There's a slight difference in nuance. "Despite" has a negative tone to it, while the tone of "although" is neutral.
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 15:05
Chinese to English
+ ...
There are lots of variations of these types of construction that basically convey the same meaning, although some may slightly vary in nuance.
尽管他迟到了，他仍是得了第一。
I agree with Zhoudan about the pairing of "除非 ... 否则", "如果 ... 那么", etc.. That's part of what makes learning Chinese challenging. Sometimes in some situations even native Chinese speakers have trouble getting the pairing right. It might have something to do with l... See more There are lots of variations of these types of construction that basically convey the same meaning, although some may slightly vary in nuance.
尽管他迟到了，他仍是得了第一。
I agree with Zhoudan about the pairing of "除非 ... 否则", "如果 ... 那么", etc.. That's part of what makes learning Chinese challenging. Sometimes in some situations even native Chinese speakers have trouble getting the pairing right. It might have something to do with logic, or rather the lack of logic. 
[Edited at 2012-05-15 19:08 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Zhoudan
Local time: 04:05
English to Chinese
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ysun
United States
Local time: 15:05
English to Chinese
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| 连不少中国人都没学好汉语 | May 15, 2012 |
Zhoudan wrote:
除非......，否则......
如果......，那么......
如果......，就......
看到小周这帖，我颇有感触。作为一种惯例，某客户总是把校稿者修改的译文返回给我，由我最后定稿。在简体译稿中，某校稿者总是把“若......，则......”改为“如果......，......”；而在繁体译稿中，就总是把“如果......，就......”改为“若......，......”。尽管客户让我决定是否接受或拒绝该校稿者的修改，但为了不必要的麻烦，后来我在简体译稿中就一律采用“如果......，就......”，在繁体译稿中就一律采用“若......，则......”。尽管如此，事情还是没有完。现在，该校稿者干脆总是把“如果......，就......”改为“如......，......”，并对客户说这样改是为了 “fit the Mainland China market terminologies”。虽然不能说这样的改法绝对是错的，但我认为完全没有必要。而且我认为，在某些情况下，“那么”、“就”之类承接语气的词还是不能省略的。
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 15:05
Chinese to English
+ ...
ysun wrote:
看到小周这帖，我颇有感触。作为一种惯例，某客户总是把校稿者修改的译文返回给我，由我最后定稿。在简体译稿中，某校稿者总是把“若......，则......”改为“如果......，......”；而在繁体译稿中，就总是把“如果......，就......”改为“若......，......”。尽管客户让我决定是否接受或拒绝该校稿者的修改，但为了不必要的麻烦，后来我在简体译稿中就一律采用“如果......，就......”，在繁体译稿中就一律采用“若......，则......”。尽管如此，事情还是没有完。现在，该校稿者干脆总是把“如果......，就......”改为“如......，......”，并对客户说这样改是为了 “fit the Mainland China market terminologies”。虽然不能说这样的改法绝对是错的，但我认为完全没有必要。而且我认为，在某些情况下，“那么”、“就”之类承接语气的词还是不能省略的。
同意。 这种修改法是鸡蛋里挑骨头，完全多余。 It's similar to changing the spelling of "theater" to "theatre".
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ysun
United States
Local time: 15:05
English to Chinese
+ ...
wherestip wrote:
同意。 这种修改法是鸡蛋里挑骨头，完全多余。 It's similar to changing the spelling of "theater" to "theatre".
确实如此。那些认为只有在繁体文章里才能用“若......，则......”的人，要不就是汉语没学好，要不就是根本就不懂繁体与简体的区别在哪里。
记得当初《非你莫属》主持人问应聘者，“自考为什么要去考一个英语专业，因为你的英语已经在那儿（指国外）待得很好了？”此时那应聘者答道，“那为什么我们要学语文（指汉语）呢？”这话真是一针见血。在中国土生土长的人，即使是大学毕业生、研究生，其汉语水平也不见得就自然而然地很高。
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nigerose
China
Local time: 04:05
Chinese to English
+ ...
wherestip wrote: nigerose wrote:
不用连词（虽然...但是...），而用介词，也可以翻译，而且更简洁。
尽管可能是战略投资者的角色，但或许会对中国的这些问题带来新的解决思路。
Despite (In spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor, they might bring novel solutions to these issues in China.
They might bring novel solutions to these issues in China despite (in spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor. There's a slight difference in nuance. "Despite" has a negative tone to it, while the tone of "although" is neutral.
金山词霸：
despite
[dis5pait]
prep.
不顾, 尽管, 纵使
Despite the bad weather we enjoyed our holiday.
尽管天气不好，我们的假期仍过得很愉快。
（negative tone！）
remain modest despite one's achievements
尽管有成绩仍然保持谦虚
（negative tone ?）
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 15:05
Chinese to English
+ ...
| weighing words | May 15, 2012 |
nigerose wrote:
金山词霸：
despite
[dis5pait]
prep.
不顾, 尽管, 纵使
Despite the bad weather we enjoyed our holiday.
尽管天气不好，我们的假期仍过得很愉快。
（negative tone！）
remain modest despite one's achievements
尽管有成绩仍然保持谦虚
（negative tone ?）
I'm saying that specifically in this instance, the way you used the word "despite" could very well be taken as a snub towards the role of being a possible strategic investor. But that's just me. I personally wouldn't use the word "despite" in that manner, knowing that the original didn't have the slightest hint of being a slighting or cutting remark.
I like the 2 sentences Phil provided because they are clear and accurate. The word "despite" could indeed be used, but your sentence might need to be rephrased into something similar to what he had.
[Edited at 2012-05-16 04:09 GMT]
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ysun
United States
Local time: 15:05
English to Chinese
+ ...
wherestip wrote: nigerose wrote:
不用连词（虽然...但是...），而用介词，也可以翻译，而且更简洁。
尽管可能是战略投资者的角色，但或许会对中国的这些问题带来新的解决思路。
Despite (In spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor, they might bring novel solutions to these issues in China.
They might bring novel solutions to these issues in China despite (in spite of）their possible role as a strategic investor. There's a slight difference in nuance. "Despite" has a negative tone to it, while the tone of "although" is neutral.
http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/despite
de‧spite
1 used to say that something happens or is true even though something else might have prevented it [= in spite of]:
Despite all our efforts to save the school, the authorities decided to close it.
despite the fact (that)
She went to Spain despite the fact that her doctor had told her to rest.
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 04:05
Chinese to English
| nigerose, please use a proper reference tool | May 16, 2012 |
sorry to be direct, but no-one over the age of 15 should be using 金山词霸。 buy a proper dictionary. We're supposed to be professionals here.
[Edited at 2012-05-16 04:23 GMT]
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